Underappreciated games.

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Re: Underappreciated games.

Post by I REALLY HATE POKEMON! » Wed Feb 07, 2018 1:05 am

DarkZero wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2018 10:52 pm
i've always heard people didn't like it because of fludd. but maybe that was just the knee-jerk reaction at the time, like wind waker's cutesy graphics got
Cappy is more of a focus and far more pretentious. Cappy screws the gameplay up whereas Fludd just adds maneuverability in intuitive, fun ways. If Fludd really is a reason then those people can't like Cappy at all.

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Re: Underappreciated games.

Post by Marilink » Wed Feb 07, 2018 8:37 am

That’s not a one-to-one comparison.

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Re: Underappreciated games.

Post by Random User » Wed Feb 07, 2018 11:07 am

What? Cappy serves to directly improve Mario's maneuverability and acrobatics, much like FLUDD did. Mario has never controlled more smoothly and seamlessly in a Mario title, to be honest.

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Re: Underappreciated games.

Post by Apollo the Just » Thu Feb 08, 2018 2:56 am

I think I partially agree with IRHP's sentiment although not necessarily his delivery of said sentiment.

Like, IMO it's fair for someone to prefer the movement Cappy provides Mario over the movement FLUDD provides Mario (these people are wrong, because Cappy isn't a **** JETPACK, but they're still allowed to feel that way I guess), since they're mechanically different enough that people will obviously have varying preferences.

But like, FLUDD and Cappy are both - at their core - cartoony sentient companions to Mario who functionally serve to expand on his base movement, so conceptually objecting to one and not the other is kind of hypocritical. I'm not sure whether or not "FLUDD is gimmicky but Cappy isn't" is a widespread viewpoint, but if it is then I definitely disagree with it.

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Re: Underappreciated games.

Post by I REALLY HATE POKEMON! » Thu Feb 08, 2018 7:10 am

I don't see how it is not a fair comparison. I also disagree that Mario's movements are as good in Odyssey as 64/Sunshine, but I'm also apparently in the minority thinking SMB1 controls like **** so idk.

I do know that just because Cappy and Fludd are conceptually similar doesn't mean one isn't worse than the other. It may come down to preference but I'm also pretty sure that their roles as characters aren't equal. IIRC Fludd hardly spoke at all and was much more of a tool than a story element compared to Cappy. There was no "Fludd Land" and Fludette, his sister, or an entire species of these things. Bowser didn't kidnap a Fluddling. It was just a friggin' jetpack, I liked that and screw Cappy ok

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Re: Underappreciated games.

Post by Marilink » Thu Feb 08, 2018 7:27 am

I’ll say up front again that I still like Sunshine.

I can certainly see why people would dislike FLUDD on a conceptual level but still like Cappy. FLUDD, in his role as companion, alters the entire core concept of Sunshine as a game. And I don’t just mean he has game mechanics built around him; I mean that Sunshine basically becomes something other than a core Mario game. The primary objective is no longer “Get from point A to point B via these challenges.” The primary objective becomes “Clean up with your water pack, and otherwise spray water to get things done.”

Are there still platforming challenges? Yeah, there are, but they’re no longer the focus. And...dare I say it, the platforming challenges aren’t necessarily very good across the board. While the movement in Sunshine is awesome (and a lot of that is due to FLUDD!), the platforming itself in Sunshine is lackluster.

On the other hand, Cappy does not alter the core gameplay of Mario, but rather gives Mario another tool. “Capture the enemies” is not the #1 goal of Odyssey levels, but capturing enemies gives you different options to get from point A to point B by overcoming a series of challenges.

Also, outside of the first level, Cappy barely talks to you, which is another point in his favor. (And when he does talk, he’s cute and fun!)

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Re: Underappreciated games.

Post by I REALLY HATE POKEMON! » Thu Feb 08, 2018 8:41 am

Marilink wrote:
Thu Feb 08, 2018 7:27 am
I’ll say up front again that I still like Sunshine.

I can certainly see why people would dislike FLUDD on a conceptual level but still like Cappy. FLUDD, in his role as companion, alters the entire core concept of Sunshine as a game. And I don’t just mean he has game mechanics built around him; I mean that Sunshine basically becomes something other than a core Mario game. The primary objective is no longer “Get from point A to point B via these challenges.” The primary objective becomes “Clean up with your water pack, and otherwise spray water to get things done.”

Are there still platforming challenges? Yeah, there are, but they’re no longer the focus. And...dare I say it, the platforming challenges aren’t necessarily very good across the board. While the movement in Sunshine is awesome (and a lot of that is due to FLUDD!), the platforming itself in Sunshine is lackluster.

On the other hand, Cappy does not alter the core gameplay of Mario, but rather gives Mario another tool. “Capture the enemies” is not the #1 goal of Odyssey levels, but capturing enemies gives you different options to get from point A to point B by overcoming a series of challenges.

Also, outside of the first level, Cappy barely talks to you, which is another point in his favor. (And when he does talk, he’s cute and fun!)
What alters the entire core concept of Mario more, the mere addition of spraying water or not being Mario half the time? There may be a bit less Platforming in Sunshine as opposed to exploring (compared to SM64), but I guess you could say the same thing about Odyssey. A good chunk of the Moons are obtained through non-platforming means, some are pretty boring really. There were indeed some bad parts of Sunshine though, I'll never forget this annoying level. However, I think most of it was solid.

Fludd barely talks too, and he's not cute nor fun so that's two points in his favor. =P

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Re: Underappreciated games.

Post by Marilink » Thu Feb 08, 2018 8:45 am

I REALLY HATE POKEMON! wrote:
Thu Feb 08, 2018 8:41 am
Marilink wrote:
Thu Feb 08, 2018 7:27 am
I’ll say up front again that I still like Sunshine.

I can certainly see why people would dislike FLUDD on a conceptual level but still like Cappy. FLUDD, in his role as companion, alters the entire core concept of Sunshine as a game. And I don’t just mean he has game mechanics built around him; I mean that Sunshine basically becomes something other than a core Mario game. The primary objective is no longer “Get from point A to point B via these challenges.” The primary objective becomes “Clean up with your water pack, and otherwise spray water to get things done.”

Are there still platforming challenges? Yeah, there are, but they’re no longer the focus. And...dare I say it, the platforming challenges aren’t necessarily very good across the board. While the movement in Sunshine is awesome (and a lot of that is due to FLUDD!), the platforming itself in Sunshine is lackluster.

On the other hand, Cappy does not alter the core gameplay of Mario, but rather gives Mario another tool. “Capture the enemies” is not the #1 goal of Odyssey levels, but capturing enemies gives you different options to get from point A to point B by overcoming a series of challenges.

Also, outside of the first level, Cappy barely talks to you, which is another point in his favor. (And when he does talk, he’s cute and fun!)
What alters the entire core concept of Mario more, the mere addition of spraying water or not being Mario half the time? There may be a bit less Platforming in Sunshine as opposed to exploring (compared to SM64), but I guess you could say the same thing about Odyssey. A good chunk of the Moons are obtained through non-platforming means, some are pretty boring really. There were indeed some bad parts of Sunshine though, I'll never forget this annoying level. However, I think most of it was solid.

Fludd barely talks too, and he's not cute nor fun so that's two points in his favor. =P
Maybe I have an exaggerated misconception of how much FLUDD talks because of the weird VO they gave him

I think that the water spraying alters the concept more because it takes Mario and makes it a 3rd Person Shooter instead of a platformer. (I'm overstating the case a little bit there, I know, but I'm using it to prove a point). Capturing enemies with Cappy is most often a discrete challenge that varies from world to world and section to section, whereas water spraying to clean goop and hit bosses is like the core loop of Sunshine's gameplay. Capturing is core to Odyssey, yes, but it's varied and allows for a lot more ingenuity of design.

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Re: Underappreciated games.

Post by I REALLY HATE POKEMON! » Thu Feb 08, 2018 9:00 am

Yeah, Fludd was weird, for sure.

I guess it just comes down to us perceiving the changes differently. I at least agree that Cappy's abilities are more varied but quality vs quantity, as they say. Jetpacking around was a blast
Spoiler.
(pun)
, I don't think anything in Odyssey is gonna match it.

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Re: Underappreciated games.

Post by Marilink » Thu Feb 08, 2018 10:55 am

^I think if you got around to playing more Odyssey, it could surprise you.

Anyway, back to the thread...

Chameleon Twist

Image

Do you like N64/PSX-era 3D platformers? If yes, then you should probably play Chameleon Twist. The thing that makes this game stand out is the tongue mechanic, which, as I type those words, only grows more and more ridiculous to me, but it's true. You can stretch out your tongue to traverse gaps, grab items (multiple items at once, in fact), and it's also your primary weapon.

Image

It's by no means the perfect platformer, but I've got a healthy nostalgia for it and I do think it holds up for the most part. At least, it holds up as well as any B-tier cult-following late-90's 3D platformer. So...take that for what it is.

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Re: Underappreciated games.

Post by Apollo the Just » Thu Feb 08, 2018 1:11 pm

ok im tryin not to beat a dead horse with this conversation so i apologize but i absolutely **** love sunshine and find it physically impossible not to have another word I AM SORRY IN ADVANCE
Marilink wrote:
Thu Feb 08, 2018 7:27 am
I’ll say up front again that I still like Sunshine.
Before I get to the rest -- I know you do, I was being sassy in my post before but I apologize if it came across as dismissing your actual view of the game which I know is a) personally subjective and b) overall still positive.
I can certainly see why people would dislike FLUDD on a conceptual level but still like Cappy. FLUDD, in his role as companion, alters the entire core concept of Sunshine as a game. And I don’t just mean he has game mechanics built around him; I mean that Sunshine basically becomes something other than a core Mario game. The primary objective is no longer “Get from point A to point B via these challenges.” The primary objective becomes “Clean up with your water pack, and otherwise spray water to get things done.”

Are there still platforming challenges? Yeah, there are, but they’re no longer the focus. And...dare I say it, the platforming challenges aren’t necessarily very good across the board. While the movement in Sunshine is awesome (and a lot of that is due to FLUDD!), the platforming itself in Sunshine is lackluster.

On the other hand, Cappy does not alter the core gameplay of Mario, but rather gives Mario another tool. “Capture the enemies” is not the #1 goal of Odyssey levels, but capturing enemies gives you different options to get from point A to point B by overcoming a series of challenges.

Also, outside of the first level, Cappy barely talks to you, which is another point in his favor. (And when he does talk, he’s cute and fun!)
Okay, this. I cannot agree with this. I mean, obviously there are people who dislike FLUDD but like Cappy, because everyone has opinions and preferences, and some people will inevitably prefer Cute Hat With Eyes over Weird Water Jetpack. Some people will also inevitably prefer capturing dinosaurs and jumping around throwing hats over having a jetpack and nyooming around on water. Some people will also certainly prefer the opposite (I know I do, again with the admission that my experience with Odyssey thus far is certainly limited.) But it's COMPLETELY unfair to claim that Odyssey expands on "core mario" whereas Sunshine diverts from it, and to use that to justify claiming that Cappy is good but FLUDD sucks. -not necessarily your viewpoint, but an exaggerated one I'll be arguing against.

Cappy alters the entire core concept of Odyssey just as much if not more as FLUDD does. There are approximately a million moons in Odyssey, right? And a VERY HUGELY SIGNIFICANT AMOUNT OF THEM are from fun overworld activities, minigames, Cappy-related puzzles, and exploration. That's not to dismiss that there are certainly a lot of platforming elements in Odyssey, but we can't ignore HOW MUCH of the game is noticeably not about point-a-to-point-b platforming. If Odyssey were a core Mario platformer it would have about a quarter as many Moons, New Donk City would be boring and suck and probably not even exist, and the game would basically be NSMB. What makes it Odyssey is the exploration aspect, the open world, opportunities to dick around, and - yes - a LOT of Cappy-related gimmicky stuff. That's not a bad thing. It's part of Odyssey's identity.

And as IRHP has mentioned, Cappy was infinitely more "intrusive" - I don't want to call it that because it's part of the game's identity but hopefully you get my meaning - to the story than FLUDD. I think a grand total of 2 cutscenes in all of SMS actually involve FLUDD in any capacity. The rest are entirely focused on Mario, Peach, Bowser, Bowser Jr., Piantas, etc. FLUDD speaks at first to exposit and provide a tutorial and from then on it is completely Mario time.

(Also, there's that whole segment in Odyssey where you're climbing up that tower and Cappy is monologuin about how far you've come together etc. This is all fine, but it's so unfair to call out Sunshine for FLUDD as if Odyssey didn't do the exact same sort of thing.)

Anyway. "Capturing the enemy" may not be the #1 goal of Odyssey, but pretending that "spraying everything with water" is the #1 goal of Sunshine is presenting a serious double standard. Capturing the enemy is encouraged by gameplay in the vast majority of settings, some platform-oriented and a LOT completely for fluff, exploration, or worldbuilding, and is absolutely a focus of the game.

Genuine question: would it be possible to complete Odyssey without using Cappy? If Cappy is just an addition to core Mario gameplay without significantly changing it in a way the game revolves around, then the game should not require extensive use of him. It probably does. That's not a bad thing. But it DOES mean that Cappy is a very major part of what makes Odyssey Odyssey, in a way that is markedly different from how Mario controls in other games, and that makes him literally exactly the same as FLUDD. It's okay to feel that Cappy's gameplay "feels more Mario" but that's totally subjective. Both Cappy and FLUDD change the movement and concept of their respective games at their very core because those games were designed around showcasing the movements these new additions provide.

Granted, FLUDD's being core to Sunshine is certainly more obvious, especially with the tropical theme and everything involving water... but I can't accept the argument that FLUDD somehow made Sunshine not-mario when Cappy altered Mario's movement - IMO - just as significantly, if differently.

It's fair to dislike the platforming around FLUDD. Personally I love Ricco Harbor's lateral platforming with the rocket nozzle, using FLUDD to steer the lava boats, running across water with whatever that other nozzle was called.... I find it so much more fun than what other Mario games had to offer. I would be sincerely surprised if other people didn't feel the same about Odyssey (love the movement it provides for Mario and find it much more fun than what other Mario games allow you to do). They're different, so it's fine to have preferences, but I still find it hypocritical to state that one is core Mario and the other isn't. FLUDD is just as much "another tool" on top of Mario movement as Cappy is.

....I wish I had time to proofread this but now I'm gonna be late for work OOPS

I WILL DROP THIS CONVERSATION NOW IM SORRY I JUST HAD TO BC OF WHO I AM AS A PERSON

~~~~BACK ON TOPIC~~~~~

SA1 is super underrated and way better than SA2 because, even though Big sucks, literally everyone else's gameplay is SO FUN and the overworld is absolutely fantastic and fun and I like how you don't get the full scope of the story until you play everone's story. It's just a really interesting and fun game. I love it.

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Re: Underappreciated games.

Post by X-3 » Thu Feb 08, 2018 2:40 pm

FLUDD and Cappy both alter the way Mario can platform while giving him new things to do in the world. This is merely an expansion on SM64, where you could do things like deliver a penguin to its mother. The serious differences between the two games is more in raw level design, as the root of most criticisms of Sunshine is how eager the game is to punch the player in the dick. I think the game gets all the appreciation it deserves.

The Oracle games don't get much appreciation.

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Re: Underappreciated games.

Post by Random User » Thu Feb 08, 2018 2:57 pm

I will say that I think the primary issue with Sunshine is less FLUDD and more the lack of challenging platforming sections. The Secret sections are probably the strongest point of Sunshine and I think the Red Coin challenges in them demonstrate that FLUDD is definitely not the reason Sunshine's platforming feels lackluster. I think this is at least partially because they decided to contextualize all the platforming in Sunshine, which builds a nice and believable world, but ultimately cripples the platforming in the main stages. 64 struck a better balance in that regard, as well as Odyssey. Things don't need to be abstract blocks floating in 3D space, but things also don't need to be strictly life-like.

Also back on topic, I feel like a lot of people have gone back to say that Sonic Adventure and Sonic Adventure 2 is really bad for some reason. I do agree they have a lot of problems but overall I think they're both really enjoyable games, and I definitely would say I prefer them over the "boost gameplay" of the more recent Sonic titles.

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Re: Underappreciated games.

Post by Marilink » Thu Feb 08, 2018 5:20 pm

^I’m TOTALLY with you on that assessment, RU. The design philosophy of “realism” (no floating blocks, logically planned spaces) in the main levels of Sunshine really hamstrings the potential of the world.

Re: @Apollo the Just ‘s thoughts on FLUDD vs. Cappy: It’s true that both sidekicks bring about mechanics that alter the way the game is played. However the reason I think that FLUDD is more intrusive to the franchise is that, to me, he takes the core concept of Mario and sidetracks it, whereas Cappy takes the core concept of Mario and riffs on it. Never once in Odyssey does it feel like you’re playing anything other than a Mario game. I can’t say the same for Sunshine. Yes, that’s pretty subjective, but I also think it’s fair.

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Re: Underappreciated games.

Post by I REALLY HATE POKEMON! » Thu Feb 08, 2018 6:24 pm

I agree with everything AtJ said regarding SMS/SMO, especially where she pointed out that Cappy is more yappy. One look at the marketing for SMO lets you know they're cramming Cappy right where the sun don't Sunshine whether you like it or not. Fludd is practically non-existent character-wise. If you like Cappy then it's a plus but I cringe just thinking about him.
Marilink wrote:Never once in Odyssey does it feel like you’re playing anything other than a Mario game.
This simply doesn't make sense. I haven't played a lot of SMO yet but read reviews and watched videos, and the Dragon boss and his world, as well as New Donk City, are called out quite a lot for not feeling like they belong in a Mario game, especially the former. I'm not even sure how it qualifies as a Mario game when it doesn't play like one since you're controlling other not-Mario characters so much. Sunshine was still Mario but with a jetpack--different but familiar. Find a casual Mario fan who doesn't know anything about SMO, hand them the controller while possessing the T-Rex and ask them how they like this Mario game, wait for their baffled expression. Hand them SMS and they'll go "ah mario w/ jetpack, i may or may not like this mario game but that is indeed what this is and plays like."

I'm definitely gonna play some SMO today so I can speak on its quality some more (and because it's fun).

Back on topic, I think Mega Man & Bass is very underappreciated. It wasn't released outside of Japan until the inferior GBA port so I think that plays a part in why. I saw some people say it's hard too, but if you play as Bass it's averagely difficult.

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Re: Underappreciated games.

Post by Apollo the Just » Thu Feb 08, 2018 9:38 pm

Oh by the way

Dai Gyakuten Saiban/The Great Ace Attorney is C R I M I N A L L Y under appreciated.

This is because it wasn't localized and the fan translation is still in the works so if you want to get the story now you have to watch like 30 hours of YouTube videos with subtitles.

BUT.

It's legitimately the best Ace Attorney installment. It takes some of the brilliant innovations from the PL/AA crossover (which is ALSO criminally underrated; its OST is one of my favorites ever and its art direction is superior to most games from either standalone series) - like the jury cross examinations, and being an attorney in trials that don't have fingerprints or modern technology at our disposal - and expands on certain main AA game thematic ideals way successfully. The way it interacts with Sherlock Holmes canon is REALLY clever and fresh. Its OST and art direction are also top tier because it was worked on by largely the same team as the PLvsAA crossover. And DGS crosses a moral boundary the AA main series has straight up refused to do far.

Honestly that mini series - PLvsAA, and DGS/DGS2 as spiritual successors - is so good. I love it so much. A lot of people **** on the crossover and the vast majority of people haven't had the opportunity to consume DGS but I love these games so much, more than AA and PL in certain respects, and as much as them in others... and they just don't get the attention they're due.

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Re: Underappreciated games.

Post by I am nobody » Thu Feb 08, 2018 10:13 pm

Probably not going surprise anyone given my avatar, but if we're counting games that are underappreciated mostly because they weren't released here, Taiko no Tatsujin is consistently amazing. Mostly because it's so unabashedly stupid - you want your taiko playing accompanied by dogs in traditional garb? Got loads o' that. Want a full-on RPG story with time travel and dragons as your single player campaign? Got that, too. Famous classical music set to the soundscape of a wedding fiasco? Replacing your drum sounds with farts? All that and more. And where would we be without drum dress-up?

ImageImageImage

Alas, we only got a crummy PS2 one from before they completely lost their minds. So we don't get to dress our drums up as more drums.

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Re: Underappreciated games.

Post by Booyakasha » Thu Feb 08, 2018 11:09 pm

I super love 'Mad Maestro'. It's from the pre-GH/RB days of rhythm games, when instead of just getting a higher score for doing better, you'd get to see the level go ever more increasingly bananas.

...no one ever talks about 'Mad Maestro'. It requires a deft touch---------you have to hit the right buttons at the right time, but also with the right amount of pressure. Not a common thing in rhythm gaming.
boo----------------xbox forum arm-wrestling champion

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Re: Underappreciated games.

Post by Apollo the Just » Thu Feb 08, 2018 11:59 pm

Ooooh, you know what's another underappreciated gem??

Mother 1.

To preface: I totally get why. Earthbound and Mother 3 improved on its formula in virtually every conceivable capacity. It suffers greatly from the limitations of its era.

BUT?? It has such an incredible OST, not only did it introduce Snowman as well as a bunch of themes that were remixed in EB but Bein' Friends is the best BGM in the Mother franchise IMO. It's so pure. (The Onett music in SSBM has long been my favorite in the game and once I played Mother 1 I realized why: the game has nothing but amazing melodies to work with). It has the same charm and quirky personality as the other installments. Random encounter and the lack of a scrolling health meter are drawbacks, but it does the thing I love about this series where it uses status ailments and other aspects of gameplay to humanize its characters and tell its story (Ninten's asthma is so endearing). I love the way you come across the melodies as songs - this mechanism was used way differently and still SUPER INCREDIBLY in EB, but I love how you get a melody from a canary's song here; that kind of thing.

To be fair I still haven't beaten it either, but god I love it so much. I literally cannot pick a least favorite in the series. They're all so wonderful. What a totally charming and fantastic trilogy and I think the first installment deserves way more love. :C

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Re: Underappreciated games.

Post by Dux is not you » Sat Feb 10, 2018 1:07 am

I know of very few people who have played Tomba!, one of the best games for the original PlayStation. I've finished it multiple times and even tried my hand at a 100% speedrun, route planning and all (I did finish in one sitting).

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