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Intersectional Feminism

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Intersectional Feminism

Post by Apollo the Just » Wed Jan 25, 2017 3:15 am

I would like to preface this post by saying this topic is pretty personal to me and moreso to my non-white non-cis female friends, and so while I know very well that I can't make people agree with me, I would appreciate any responses and discussion to bear in mind that this topic definitely has personal stakes for me. I debated whether or not it was a good idea to post this here, on a video game forum, but I'm realizing more and more that in this climate it's deeply important to me to talk about this and start discussions and potentially learn from one another rather than only talking to people and communities who already agree with me.

I've been thinking a lot on the Women's March this past weekend, and I have seen post after post, voice after voice, of non-white women, trans women, nonbinary people - including both celebrities whose words are being shared, and personal accounts of personal friends - talking about how they felt this ~march for all women~ was really a march for white, cis women, and assumed that the white cis woman is somehow representative of all women (or that all women can identify with the struggles of the white cis woman). The pink (read: Caucasian) genital imagery everywhere especially.

And that's a very real problem, one that needs to be scrutinized and addressed IMO.

Because whereas ALL women do indeed face misogyny, black women also disproportionately face violence, indigenous women also face the erasure of their homes and history, trans women also face abuse, etc etc... every single group of women in the USA faces more oppression, more obstacles, more hatred, more to fight against, than white cis women. A black woman cannot identify with the white woman on the grounds of womanhood because she has never in her life experienced white privilege. But the white woman only sees herself as a woman - because her whiteness is perceived societally as a default - and assumes all women can relate to her, and that her struggles are the only struggles applicable to womanhood.

This simply isn't true. Susan B Anthony, a white feminist icon, argued for white women's right to vote on the grounds that white women are more valuable than any black person. Many white women hail her as a hero. How could a black woman identify with this definition of womanhood? How can an indigenous woman identify with this, since this land and political system was stolen from her brutalized ancestors? When textbooks write about "women's right to vote" they really mean "white women's right to vote" because nonwhite women weren't granted the same rights until much later. Equating women's rights to white women's rights is a societal problem that we seriously need to fix, because they are not one and the same.

But, I mean, it's unrealistic to expect every white cis person to always do and say the right thing. Allies can and will screw up. I've certainly messed up. The whole thing with privilege is we don't realize how good we have it because privilege is the norm for us. So what do I hope to get out of making this post?

There's something I'm actively trying to learn and I'm hoping maybe we can all try to do this. The next time someone from a marginalized group criticizes our behavior by saying it's racist, sexist, transphobic, or any such thing (this is a criticism many people had of behavior by white women participating in the women's march)... if our first reaction is to say "no I'm not," "this isn't about [race/gender identity/etc]," "stop being so sensitive," etc. We should instead consider the following response: listen to them, as someone who has lived a life that we, as a cis person/white person/man/whatever/etc, will literally never experience, and the next time we might say the thing we were criticized for saying... reconsider it. Because *someone who would know* told us we were wrong, and we can learn and grow from it.

I saw trans, non white women criticize a march I was previously entirely in support of. It was definitely my first (defensive - I didn't want to be perceived as doing something wrong) instinct to think "ok, but [defense of the event from my white, cis perspective, ignoring the criticisms because they aren't a big deal to me]." After realizing their experiences aren't anything I'll ever be able to relate to, and that they are the only ones who know what it's like to live their lives, I decided that - in the event of a future women's event - I'll consciously avoid the imagery and symbols that made them feel excluded this time. Because where's the harm in consciously making someone - especially a historically marginalized someone - feel included?

Especially since so many people are hurting and afraid right now?

This got a bit rambly, but as I said, I think it's an important dialogue to have. To end it off...... "White feminism" (feminism that fails to account for the fact that women of other marginalized groups cannot identify with the white woman's struggle) is just white supremacy. Feminism should be intersectional, or it fails to uplift women as a whole, and therefore fails to be feminist.
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Post by Bad Dragonite » Wed Jan 25, 2017 4:01 am

Modern feminism in my opinion is being devoured more and more by a political party thus why "feminism" is becoming about race and class. I suspect pretty soon we'll either see a "Intersectional Feminist Party" once they and the traditional left get tired of each other, either that or one will devour the other. That said I'm not a feminist, I consider myself an egalitarian, equality of opportunity for all regardless of sex, sexual preference, gender, or skin-color nd this seems more like a dialogue for feminists to hash out between each other to figure out where their political group and ideology is going or if it's going to split (again). That said, there's no denying most if not all the feminists out on the marches were fighting for what they saw as the rights for all women, not just their own race's women, regardless of what Susan B Anthony said (though I agree with you, she's a horrible choice for a face for the movement, in today's world especially)


There's something I'm actively trying to learn and I'm hoping maybe we can all try to do this. The next time someone from a marginalized group criticizes our behavior by saying it's racist, sexist, transphobic, or any such thing (this is a criticism many people had of behavior by white women participating in the women's march)... if our first reaction is to say "no I'm not," "this isn't about [race/gender identity/etc]," "stop being so sensitive," etc. We should instead consider the following response: listen to them, as someone who has lived a life that we, as a cis person/white person/man/whatever/etc, will literally never experience, and the next time we might say the thing we were criticized for saying... reconsider it. Because *someone who would know* told us we were wrong, and we can learn and grow from it.
I do have a problem with this though, all this mentality does is devalue others' sense of empathy and opinions. Also you can say "it's not about race/sex " or "it isn't racist/sexist," there are objectively times where those statements are simply true. For example; say in the Romney Obama election someone voted Republican because they thought Romney had a better fiscal plan or they thought abortion was bad, someone may say "You voted against Obama that's racist" that person can objectively say "No it isn't racist."
Under the flowing logic your proposing literally any action could potentially be classified as sexist or racist.
That's a big reason we have set definitions for words, their concepts can not change depending on the whims of each separate individual. If we did then words like "racist" and "sexist" lose all meaning, because it could be anything.
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Post by Apollo the Just » Wed Jan 25, 2017 4:06 am

No offense, but if you're truly egalitarian in that you believe in equality between the sexes, you should be a feminist because we aren't there yet and a patriarchal system needs to be dismantled to get there. And you're damn right it's "about race and class" because otherwise it's just further uplifting the women who already have a head start and leaving the underprivileged to their oppression.[DOUBLEPOST=1485331598,1485331456][/DOUBLEPOST]Also-- My point is that a) only uplifting women without regard to women of color, poor women, disabled women, trans women, is only uplifting the women who already have it relatively good, and b) if someone tells us we are being oppressive or hurtful, it doesn't cost us anything to try to listen and change our behavior.
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Post by Bad Dragonite » Wed Jan 25, 2017 4:18 am

Except many vocal "third wave" feminists as I've heard them called don't want equality of opportunity they want equality of outcome giving women an edge in the opportunity area. For example if you take a look at the income gap. Many feminists point to it and say "we need to close this gap" ignoring the fact that it is based off of overall income rather than actual wages. The thing is the overall income mainly depends on personal choices of people women tend to stay at home and start a family in general and men tend to work more in general (and work higher paying jobs) that tends to add to the number but also gives men an edge professionally. It wasn't sexism that caused that though, it was personal choice. Enacting laws to pay women more than they already are currently, and enacting forced diversity boards would be directly contradictory to the free meritocracy I personally believe in, so I don't identify as a feminist.

There are some feminists I agree with like Christina Hoff Sommers, but I still don't want the label of feminist because they have become a political group rather than an actual equal rights movement in my eyes (and the above mentioned author agrees.)


I don't mind the idea of listening and understanding, but if after listening and it comes down to I support someone over Obama (just using my example from earlier) and someone accuses me of being racist for that, even if race played no factor in my decision, I can objectively tell them "No, no I'm not"
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Post by Apollo the Just » Wed Jan 25, 2017 4:34 am

Men work more than women do because women are societally groomed from a young age to prioritize their appearances to be appealing to men, to practice cooking and household chores to be good mothers, and to be more empathetic and emotional relative to men who can be the strong, hardy workers - preparing them for domestic roles. Boys are more encouraged to pursue sciences than girls. Many workplaces do not have paid maternity leave, which means if a family wants a child the parent with the uterus will have to rely on the other parent to make the money for their family. MOST workplaces do not have paid paternity leave, which means if a family wants a child the person who did not give birth has no opportunity to take time off work to spend time with their child, further associating the stay-at-home parental role of the parent with the womb. The "choice" of more men to work than women is a "choice" made because of a lifetime growing up in a PATRIARCHAL society. So if you want both women and men to have equal opportunities, you should seek to dismantle this system that relies on gendered norms which advantages the freedoms of men over women; in other words, be a feminist. (Also, the wage gap is partially due to the fact that traditionally feminine industries - those women disproportionately work in - pay less.)

As for the last point. All I'm saying is that, if you say something and someone responds with "that's racist/sexist/homophobic/transphobic," instead of immediately reacting with "no it isn't" - consider reacting with "why?" instead, potentially listen and learn, and if you have the urge to say that same thing again, you can take that conversation into account and consider NOT saying it. All I'm saying is if someone criticizes something you say or do as being oppressive, it literally costs you nothing to listen to what they have to say, and in the future avoid saying or doing that thing again. All I'm saying is that instead of immediately jumping to your own defense, you could potentially have a learning experience by hearing out their side, and maybe next time you'll decide not to repeat your actions and doing so will make an excluded someone feel more included, an oppressed someone feel more uplifted, or a hurting someone feel more supported. I'm just encouraging a dialogue, and placing more weight on the perspective of someone who's lived a life you could never understand. (The same is true of them to you of course.)

......I don't know why I made this thread; I knew it would be too emotionally exhausting to keep up with. I'm getting too invested to be calm and objective about this. I'm leaving my posts here in case they inspire anyone or cause anyone to think more introspectively on these issues, but I'm probably not going to engage further. <3
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Post by Bad Dragonite » Wed Jan 25, 2017 4:52 am

[QUOTE="CuccoLady, post: 1619920, member: 30977"]Men work more than women do because women are societally groomed from a young age to prioritize their appearances to be appealing to men, to practice cooking and household chores to be good mothers, and to be more empathetic and emotional relative to men who can be the strong, hardy workers - preparing them for domestic roles. Boys are more encouraged to pursue sciences than girls. Many workplaces do not have paid maternity leave, which means if a family wants a child the parent with the uterus will have to rely on the other parent to make the money for their family. MOST workplaces do not have paid paternity leave, which means if a family wants a child the person who did not give birth has no opportunity to take time off work to spend time with their child, further associating the stay-at-home parental role of the parent with the womb. The "choice" of more men to work than women is a "choice" made because of a lifetime growing up in a PATRIARCHAL society. So if you want both women and men to have equal opportunities, you should seek to dismantle this system that relies on gendered norms which advantages the freedoms of men over women; in other words, be a feminist.

[/quote]

And how would you go about making that happen though? I'm not asking that sarcastically either. Would you do it through legislation, taking away their choices or the choices of business owners to pick who they hire on merit therefore getting the best for the job regardess of sex or race? Again I may sound like a jerk asking these, but I'm legitimately looking for information.
You can't really force culture to change. It's basically impossible. Certainly you can help it along, I guess, but usually it just doesn't really work out.

And yes maybe it has been "groomed into them" I expect though that women can think critically about the situation and still make those choices.


And on your last point, as I said in my last post, I agree, I'm fine with listening to them and hearing their side. In fact I encourage it, it's only respectful.
I'm just also saying that someone's experiences aren't always necessarily going to lead to the correct outcome. If their experience is "Person A seemed like a racist and called me the n word or made a mean spirited racial joke whatever, and they voted against trump, therefore this other person must be a racist"

Just for a real life example my own mother, a danish/irish/native american mix was mistreated constantly by others at a primarily black school. Her experience might tell someone who has been in that position "All Black people are cruel, lazy, hateful, racist towards Whites, etc" but that experience doesn't really make that opinion correct. I've just heard too many people put feelings over facts. Not saying you're doing that, just a statement worth mentioning in my opinion.

Honestly I'm kinda enjoying this, if only because we're actually staying more or less respectful.
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Post by Apollo the Just » Wed Jan 25, 2017 5:12 am

Actually, since you've asked earnest questions and are willing to listen, I owe you a response. :)

There are certainly concrete steps that can be taken. Off the top of my head, here are some possibilities. Number 4 is the most important because the more people think like this the more we can come up with better concrete solutions.

1. Mandate both paid maternity and paternity leave. This ensures that ANY parent, regardless of sex or gender, has the EQUAL OPPORTUNITY to spend time raising their child, preventing the duty to by default fall on the parent with the uterus. It also has the added bonus of allowing both/all parents to spend time with their little one. It's not changing who businesses choose to hire, it's ensuring that employees have the opportunity to be the parents they want to be and forge their domestic roles as they see fit. They will return to work after a matter of months; this was enforced at my last job and made for a really positive work environment that valued its employees.

2. Support school programs that advocate for girls in science/math/etc. Clubs or charities to encourage more women to pursue these fields, since socially they are discouraged.

3. Home ec courses/programs in schools. If socially women are disproportionately prepared by their upbringing to hold down domestic tasks, school programs teaching these skills to ALL students can even out this skill set so parents can make their own decisions without regard to gender of whether or not they prefer to do the cooking, etc. (Life skills in general should be more essential to education; we should honestly think about having tax information and resume building courses as core curriculum IMO)

4. This is a lot less concrete, but just changing attitudes in general. We as a society have already progressed a LOT. It's proven that society and people can change perspectives. So when you see or hear language or actions that unnecessarily reinforce gender roles and norms, call it into question. The more people start questioning these norms, the more they're doubted, the more people will start thinking about how we can dismantle and/or change the system to be truly equal. That's what it means to be a feminist.

And thank you for being respectful in your responses. I do want to point out one thing - IMO, there is a reason you are enjoying this conversation whereas I'm emotionally exhausted and drained by it. It doesn't mean my perspective is more valid than yours, but it does mean I have a more personal stake in it. Which is why I appreciate you listening to my points. Next time the topic comes up, I hope you think about this conversation and then make a decision as to whether or not you have changed your point of view on anything we've talked about, after we've learned from one another.
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Post by I REALLY HATE POKEMON! » Wed Jan 25, 2017 5:15 am

What defines white feminism to you, CL? Did you think you were supporting whatever that is?

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Post by Apollo the Just » Wed Jan 25, 2017 5:37 am

@IRHP: white feminism, to me, is basically the product of well-meaning white women who want to address the gender inequality they (we) experience relative to white men, and in doing so mistakenly - because we experience our bodies as the norm or default for womanhood - assume that our experiences and platform is a platform that will help all women unanimously. The problem with so-called white feminism is that if we *only* address or dismantle structures of misogyny without also working to address racism and other intersecting factors that influence non-white or other underprivileged women, the end result if we get what we strive for will be equality of white men and women, who still will be privileged over other races, gender identities, disabled folks, etc etc etc. So even though it seems positive in theory, the problem is that it doesn't address that many other women experience not just misogyny but also racism/transphobia/what have you, and that its end goal is to make white women and white men equal without fighting against oppressive structures that disproportionately hurt other women.

...that got a little wordy, but basically a feminist, most usually a white woman, who loves drawing pink vaginas and equates those to womanhood and wants to just close the wage gap and would be happy with just equal rights and opportunity to white men, and doesn't also seek to fight against racism or violence against other oppressed groups, would be a "white feminist." Someone whose end goal is to get rid of misogyny but would be ok if at the end of the day they still have more rights than an immigrant trans woman.

(The post I made about steps to dismantle gender roles was kind of white feminist-y because I don't also address how women of other intersecting identities are disproportionately affected and in different ways by the wage gap, how incarceration means more black parents are in jail which in turn leads to the black children having less of a healthy and balanced home life to succeed in education and get the same employment opportunities, etc etc etc. It's a privilege I have to leave out these facts and only talk about gender because I am only impacted by gender and not also race/socio-economic status, etc.)

**** that was still really wordy. Sorry.

I've never intentionally advocated for this, but the problem is that it - like most acts of casual racism - isn't an intentional thing. It's not like I or anyone else go around being like "I want the same rights as white men but **** black people AM I RIGHT"; instead, it's being like "woo girl power let's fight the patriarchy!" *knits a pink ***** hat* while an indigenous protestor is handing out NoDAPL pamphlets because even if misogyny is ever dismantled her people are still being threatened by an eventual oil spill in their water supply, or while a black trans woman is like "neither the pink nor the genitalia being referenced by that symbol represent me, so are you even fighting for me or just for you?", etc. It's unintentionally presenting myself as a white woman as the default and assuming my struggle uplifts all women; when instead it's important to fight misogyny and ALSO racism, transphobia, ableism, and other oppressive systems because these also greatly impact women who weren't born white and cis like me.
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Post by Bad Dragonite » Wed Jan 25, 2017 5:37 am

[QUOTE="CuccoLady, post: 1619925, member: 30977"]Actually, since you've asked earnest questions and are willing to listen, I owe you a response. :smile:

There are certainly concrete steps that can be taken. Off the top of my head, here are some possibilities. Number 4 is the most important because the more people think like this the more we can come up with better concrete solutions.

1. Mandate both paid maternity and paternity leave. This ensures that ANY parent, regardless of sex or gender, has the EQUAL OPPORTUNITY to spend time raising their child, preventing the duty to by default fall on the parent with the uterus. It also has the added bonus of allowing both/all parents to spend time with their little one. It's not changing who businesses choose to hire, it's ensuring that employees have the opportunity to be the parents they want to be and forge their domestic roles as they see fit. They will return to work after a matter of months; this was enforced at my last job and made for a really positive work environment that valued its employees.

2. Support school programs that advocate for girls in science/math/etc. Clubs or charities to encourage more women to pursue these fields, since socially they are discouraged.

3. Home ec courses/programs in schools. If socially women are disproportionately prepared by their upbringing to hold down domestic tasks, school programs teaching these skills to ALL students can even out this skill set so parents can make their own decisions without regard to gender of whether or not they prefer to do the cooking, etc. (Life skills in general should be more essential to education; we should honestly think about having tax information and resume building courses as core curriculum IMO)

4. This is a lot less concrete, but just changing attitudes in general. We as a society have already progressed a LOT. It's proven that society and people can change perspectives. So when you see or hear language or actions that unnecessarily reinforce gender roles and norms, call it into question. The more people start questioning these norms, the more they're doubted, the more people will start thinking about how we can dismantle and/or change the system to be truly equal. That's what it means to be a feminist.

And thank you for being respectful in your responses. I do want to point out one thing - IMO, there is a reason you are enjoying this conversation whereas I'm emotionally exhausted and drained by it. It doesn't mean my perspective is more valid than yours, but it does mean I have a more personal stake in it. Which is why I appreciate you listening to my points. Next time the topic comes up, I hope you think about this conversation and then make a decision as to whether or not you have changed your point of view on anything we've talked about, after we've learned from one another.[/QUOTE]

1 I think is actually a genuinely good idea.

2 I've never really seen anybody actively discourage girls from those roles, actually around here at least most girls I remember being just as encouraged into those programs as boys if not more and alot of times going into them more. For example my sister and I were both encouraged to do really well in all subjects of school (by teachers, parent, extended family (for the most part, the only ones who didn't really were super religious people who were a part of an offshoot denomination that most Christians see as being overly strict going so far as to remove biblical parts to justify being stricter (so imagine religious parents times ten), etc but they generally just agreed e weren't their kids and they were a rarity) and to do what we wanted to do it's just she ended up choosing something more "feminine" with enlish and linguistics, just cause that's what she wanted. I mean maybe it's just around here since I'm not super well travelled, but I don't know. Girls are generally encouraged more to just do whatever guys do here, athletics, stem fields, regular old hard factory labor, and there's also stay at home dads around here along with stem workers, manual workers, etc. Even in management it usually tends to be an even split overall ( I mean you may have more male managers aat one point but then at another point you'll have more female managers but it's basically an even split overall) So I mean it's not really a bad idea it's just kindof already a thing.

3 Again a good idea it just already exists. Those classes are generally required in alot of places for everyone.

4 Like you said it's not really concrete, but I mean there's not alot someone can do to make it change without coming off as preacher or "holier than thou." Other than maybe try and influence your kids, or maybe friends and family though the last two can again fall into the preachier category at times.

Oh no I feel the same don't get me wrong I'm just enjoying the fact that we're having a respectful discussion as it's a pleasant change of pace from the last few days where everyone who talks with me about these subjects just goes off the handle.

Believe it or not alot of feminists if you even dare question them will just go crazy and accuse you of being a sexist racist homophobe (and an uncle tom or coon if you're black and question them) so I appreciate the respect from you as well. (And I'm sure something similar happens from the other side as well)
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Post by Apollo the Just » Wed Jan 25, 2017 5:38 am

Me: "I'm exhausted I'm not gonna engage further"

also me: *stays up 3 more hours interacting with Feminist Discourse*
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Post by Bad Dragonite » Wed Jan 25, 2017 5:44 am

At a certain point it's good to take breaks, staring into the abyss for too long and all that.[DOUBLEPOST=1485337492,1485337409][/DOUBLEPOST]Just suddenly a nintendo reminder "Don't forget to take a break" fills your vision.
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Post by Apollo the Just » Wed Jan 25, 2017 5:46 am

^^^ Thankfully home ec does exist in most places, but it should be more of a standard because it certainly isn't everywhere. It's less about whether it currently exists or not in some or most places, and more about it being a standard so EVERYONE has access. Does that distinction make sense? Same with the second point. It may be already a thing in many places; the point is to make it across the board to ensure everyone has opportunity.

And about the last one. There's nothing wrong with sharing your views and challenging other peoples' views if you're comfortable doing so. it's definitely all about your relationships; obviously you're not gonna go up to people on the street like "DON'T FORCE YOUR CHILD INTO GRNDER ROLES" *hits with feminist magazine* (but I might)...but you can always start with how you interact with your own family, how you raise kids if you choose to, and in some cases where discourse is welcomed to bring it up. My point is just that making more people aware of these imbalances can help us find solutions to address them.
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Post by I REALLY HATE POKEMON! » Wed Jan 25, 2017 6:09 am

Thanks for the reply, CL. So basically, the problem was it's not inclusive enough is what I got out of that. Whenever/if you want to, I have some questions and comments you can feel free to respond to:
CuccoLady, post: 1619918, member: 30977 wrote:If someone tells us we are being oppressive or hurtful, it doesn't cost us anything to try to listen and change our behavior.
How do you know if you're actually being oppressive and hurtful, or are we always wrong by default and must change our behavior even if it isn't negative?
CuccoLady]Women are societally groomed from a young age to prioritize their appearances to be appealing to men wrote:
By who?
The wage gap is partially due to the fact that traditionally feminine industries - those women disproportionately work in - pay less.
What are traditionally feminine industries, why do they pay less, and why don't women work outside of them?
CuccoLady]All I'm saying is if someone criticizes something you say or do as being oppressive wrote:
Every time you talk about this situation you seem to frame it as if it is a forgone conclusion that the accused is genuinely guilty. Why is this?
CuccoLady]Support school programs that advocate for girls in science/math/etc. Clubs or charities to encourage more women to pursue these fields wrote:
I find it hard to believe that the majority of society discourages women to pursue mathematics. There would no logical reason to do so and I do question from where this notion even originates.
CuccoLady]...or while a black trans woman is like wrote:
That seems more like someone being pedantic to me. Symbols are meant to stand for something and, as obscene as that is, it is meant to stand for "women." It's the idea that matters and it gets that across as intended, albeit perhaps not ideally for everyone. I guess it could be a rainbow penisgina wrapped in every flag but then the message is muddled, IMO.

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Post by Marilink » Wed Jan 25, 2017 6:10 am

The US is so far behind on maternity and paternity leave that it's actually ridiculous. Unfortunately I don't see it changing anytime even close to soon, given how our country is very much interested in keeping the corporate machine running, resulting in maternity leave being perceived as just a reason to not employ women at all, and resulting in paternity leave being perceived as weak and laughable. That perception needs to change, but I don't know if it ever will in our circumstances.
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Post by Apollo the Just » Wed Jan 25, 2017 6:10 am

^^ I'll respond to your questions tomorrow as best I can; going to bed as it is like 3am

^ NOT WITH THAT ATTITUDE
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Post by I REALLY HATE POKEMON! » Wed Jan 25, 2017 6:14 am

Well I can see their position, as companies. Why would they want to pay unnecessarily? They'll probably end up wanting to just hire men because it's easier and/or cheaper. However, it's not fair for families and removes options from people. Companies need to be reigned in and forced to better accommodate all their workers. Greed sucks.

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Post by Marilink » Wed Jan 25, 2017 6:19 am

^Right; the fact that corporate ideas about p/maternity leave are understandable is part of the problem. There's a systemic bias in place against them, and it's hard to even blame a company for adhering to it because of how much of a disadvantage it causes. That disadvantage needs to be alleviated somehow--IMO by some kind of government subsidy for parental leave.
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Post by Random User » Wed Jan 25, 2017 10:13 am

From what I have experienced from the feminist scene in the last five or six years, trying to pin a definitive ideology that all feminists share is difficult. A lot of people try to tell me what feminism is, and I always get a slew of different answers ranging from completely agreeable ideals to really questionable ones. I think that the feminist banner is simply too broad to reliably define the group by its ideals in even the vaguest ways.

I imagine "white feminism" still falls under feminism, just a different interpretation of it.

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е и ժ е я
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Post by е и ժ е я » Wed Jan 25, 2017 11:53 am

I am glad that the march happened, but I am also aware that it made visible and obvious the often generic and exclusive, marketable notion of femininity that I've seen peddled in targeted products for years. I often find that things which supposedly celebrate femininity are actually celebrating stereotypes.

Part of the issue is more to do with iconography, in that widely known stereotypes and associations are being called on as they are immediately identifiable, but also the (white, cis) majority clearly believes that they are the gatekeepers who determine what is womanhood.

I do think the exclusionary concepts and focus is almost entirely circumstantial to the cultural background, and that many people only think from their personal experience. As much as it would be a good thing to see more minority groups lifted up and given a voice, I'm not surprised in the least that the majority is otherwise oblivious.
I muttered 'light as a board, stiff as a feather' for 2 days straight and now I've ascended, ;aughing at olympus and zeus is crying

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