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#41

Post by CaptHayfever » Tue Jan 05, 2016 12:41 pm

^They'd end up with a shorter stump.

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#42

Post by New! Tazy Ten » Tue Jan 05, 2016 5:02 pm

Well, now you're just asking for Hiimdaisy references.
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#43

Post by Bad Dragonite » Fri Jan 22, 2016 8:57 am

Hell Orb, post: 1580051, member: 25415 wrote:I don't really appreciate the tone of this thread, although I did appreciate the quizzical nature of the opening. Lumping together gender identity and reassignment with people who desire to be handicapped is comparing a desire to be one kind of functional human being versus a desire to remove body parts for the sake of removing body parts. To claim that a trans woman going through gender reassignment is somehow a disfigurement is to suggest that all women are lesser than men. Body modification is acceptable as a personal liberty. Leg amputation is not a part of a gender transformation, though. Glorifying the physical disabilities is a completely different phenomenon. We should applaud those who overcome disabilities, not those who seek them out. Construing these as the same situation displays an inherent lack of comprehension of the differences between innocuous self-modification and self-destruction.

Any argument that trans acceptance is akin to the destruction of society is absolutely ludicrous. Trans is not catching, nor would it be an objectively worse state if it were. It is entirely possible that there are mentally ill people who seek reassignment as an aspect of their illness, but to suggest that transgenderism is a mental illness is not objective nor is it to be tolerated here. Ill people obsess and fixate over all manner of completely innocuous behavior and make them a symptom of illness through their manner of fixation. Hypochondriacs do not negate the presence of actual illnesses. It's possible for a trans person to have a cold and for it not to be due to their status as trans. You don't stop wearing pants just because someone unwell did, and you are not made unwell by merit of wearing pants. Similarily, a single unwell trans person can not be made to represent the entirety of trans people. Just as a single white person does not represent all whites by merit of being white. That would be an irrational conflation of group association with behavior lacking a causal relationship. White people tend to wear sunscreen because their skin burns most easily, but they do not all do it because one white guy did it and we should not conflate the actions of one with all. That is irrational collectivism.
LOOT, post: 1580099, member: 21459 wrote:to throw in form before: gender dysphoria is a real mental issue, the thing is the cure is really easy and that's being the gender you actually feel

also I don't want to hear any suggestion that trans requires any form of surgery, what's in my pants is frankly none of your business and if anyone tries to find out they're pulling back a stump

also it's amazing how many people immediately resort to "well here's what's actually normal which coincidentally is me" the moment they hear of people different from them, that's my only contribution to this topic.
You won't hear it from those championing transgender equality, but controlled and follow-up studies reveal fundamental problems with this movement. When children who reported transgender feelings were tracked without medical or surgical treatment at both Vanderbilt University and London's Portman Clinic, 70%-80% of them spontaneously lost those feelings. Some 25% did have persisting feelings; what differentiates those individuals remains to be discerned.
We at Johns Hopkins University—which in the 1960s was the first American medical center to venture into "sex-reassignment surgery"—launched a study in the 1970s comparing the outcomes of transgendered people who had the surgery with the outcomes of those who did not. Most of the surgically treated patients described themselves as "satisfied" by the results, but their subsequent psycho-social adjustments were no better than those who didn't have the surgery. And so at Hopkins we stopped doing sex-reassignment surgery, since producing a "satisfied" but still troubled patient seemed an inadequate reason for surgically amputating normal organs.
It now appears that our long-ago decision was a wise one. A 2011 study at the Karolinska Institute in Sweden produced the most illuminating results yet regarding the transgendered, evidence that should give advocates pause. The long-term study—up to 30 years—followed 324 people who had sex-reassignment surgery. The study revealed that beginning about 10 years after having the surgery, the transgendered began to experience increasing mental difficulties. Most shockingly, their suicide mortality rose almost 20-fold above the comparable nontransgender population. This disturbing result has as yet no explanation but probably reflects the growing sense of isolation reported by the aging transgendered after surgery. The high suicide rate certainly challenges the surgery prescription.
http://www.wsj.com/articles/paul-mchugh ... 1402615120
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#44

Post by Kil'jaeden » Fri Jan 22, 2016 9:30 am

Do you have a subscription to the Wall Street Journal?

Anyway, you just stepped onto forbidden ground right there. Several people here know about the suicide and mental issues, since they have been documented for decades.
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#45

Post by Bad Dragonite » Fri Jan 22, 2016 10:19 am

[QUOTE="Kil'jaeden, post: 1582792, member: 26719"]Do you have a subscription to the Wall Street Journal?

Anyway, you just stepped onto forbidden ground right there. Several people here know about the suicide and mental issues, since they have been documented for decades.[/QUOTE]
No I don't.
I just knew about Johns Hopkins no longer doing the procedure and its reasoning for it and found the quote because it seems quite relevant.
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#46

Post by Kil'jaeden » Fri Jan 22, 2016 10:26 am

And you realize your transgression? You don't bring things like that up.
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#47

Post by Bad Dragonite » Fri Jan 22, 2016 10:28 am

see above response.
edit I have no idea why but now it's saying you can't read the article without signing in even though I read the entirety without an account earlier. Either way I think if a well educated and qualified individual says we need to step back and look hard at it because the repercussions could be disastrous then we should consider it. So yes I consider it quite relevant and not wrong to bring up, as a person who cares for human life I might even say I find it morally wrong to not bring it up, keeping in mind I deal with my own depression everyday and understand the sensitivity of the matter to the FULLEST extent that I can. This subject is close to me for reasons best left obscure.
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#48

Post by I am nobody » Fri Jan 22, 2016 11:14 am

Most subscription based sites like that limit you to an article or two per large time period. You probably hit your cap viewing it the first time.

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#49

Post by I REALLY HATE PRESENTS! » Fri Jan 22, 2016 12:52 pm

And so at Hopkins we stopped doing sex-reassignment surgery, since producing a "satisfied" but still troubled patient seemed an inadequate reason for surgically amputating normal organs.
This is basically what I was saying, that there is not a good enough reason to perform surgery on people, and here a professional is saying the same thing. I'm wildly intuitive.

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#50

Post by Bad Dragonite » Fri Jan 22, 2016 9:59 pm

I'd like to clarify my position here. I don't care what people do like that surgery, as long as they aren't hurting anyone and the taxpayers don't have to pay for it and if the doctor doesn't want to do it, they shouldn't have to.
What I'm against is the notion that surgery is the best"treatment" when statistically and morally, saying that is incorrect. If somebody absolutely wants to do it then fine, but their needs to be regulation to make dang sure that they really want it because if they change their mind later, there is no going back.
I think Loot had a good point when she said that it's not my business what's in their pants and there's not really a need for the surgery in the first place. Just felt I needed to clarify.
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#51

Post by е и ժ е я » Sat Jan 23, 2016 1:14 am

Depression brought on by social isolation due to a person's visual confirmation as trans is an argument for social reform, not against transitioning operations in general. Endorsing a child's transition before they're even considered by law to have the mental faculties to make decisions may be wildly irresponsible in a case-by-case decision. What the article is describing is confirmation bias, that is not an objective conclusion but rather it is implying causation.

And for the record, don't quote me unless you have something to actually say to me specifically. I can go and dig up biased articles on my own if I so desire.

Social isolation causes suicide. People with opinions strongly against trans people cause the social isolation of trans people. The blanket influence of such intolerance is the cause. You can't explain your contribution to the problem by showing me what negative effects it has and blaming the bloody operation. Just thinking about this ridiculous logic loop is making me angry.
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#52

Post by I REALLY HATE PRESENTS! » Sat Jan 23, 2016 1:17 am

Why, exactly, was my picture removed? Is Gotenks politically incorrect, too? LOL.

[quote="Hell Orb]And for the record"]

What counts as an unbiased article, then? What criteria is needed to qualify?

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#53

Post by е и ժ е я » Sat Jan 23, 2016 5:57 am

[QUOTE="I REALLY HATE POKEMON!, post: 1582953, member: 18119"]What counts as an unbiased article, then? What criteria is needed to qualify?[/QUOTE]
Are you s***ting me? One that doesn't make rash assumptions about causal relationships. There is nothing scientific about assumptions. They are the mark of stupidity.[DOUBLEPOST=1453543077,1453542964][/DOUBLEPOST][QUOTE="I REALLY HATE POKEMON!, post: 1582953, member: 18119"]Why, exactly, was my picture removed? Is Gotenks politically incorrect, too? LOL.[/QUOTE]
What did it have to do with the subject?
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#54

Post by Bad Dragonite » Sat Jan 23, 2016 7:41 am

yes the the former psychiatrist-in-chief for Johns Hopkins Hospital and its Distinguished Service Professor of Psychiatry is just a complete idiot. Obviously. I'm done arguing this point with you. There's no way I'm going to sway you from your opinions. If you can find a non biased article or even a biased one with as much credibility then please share it. I would welcome the opportunity to read it. I'm open to possibilities either way.
and I won't presume to quote you as long you don't presume to educate me on depression. Something I know quite a bit about. K? K.
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#55

Post by е и ժ е я » Sat Jan 23, 2016 11:36 am

That's some brilliant reading what I didn't write. Even your link presumes that social isolation is likely the cause for the suicide, and social isolation isn't a side effect of surgery, it's a matter of sociial interaction. You go ahead and pretend I'm the unreasonable one and make ridiculous assumptions. Get all huffy about it, by way of my not leaping to the same conclusions you or ihop would prefer. I haven't said anything remotely unreasonable, and you are making yourself look childish.

There is literally no reason why trans people should somehow have improved social interactions just because they had transitioning surgery, it's obvious fact that trans people are often the subject of derision by merit of who they are. If you would perpetuate the social acceptance of the notion that trans folks are mentally ill, you perpetuate the very environment of intolerance which may just as likely drive many of them to suicide.

A statement of "surgery is not the solution" with the content which follows presumes that happiness is somehow in a void where the only thing which has changed for the patient is the surgery, there is no control for it. Is there at least any data on whether or not people who identify as trans but don't receive surgery do not share the same suicide rate? Are we even certain this is an increase after surgery or is it an increase in likely suicide in trans people overall? We cannot draw any meaningful conclusions from such an article, it is only providing an easily disarmed supposition.
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#56

Post by Christmas PDN » Sat Jan 23, 2016 12:35 pm

http://www.wpath.org/uploaded_files/140/files/IJT SOC, V7.pdf
Since the Standards of Care have been in place [meaning since 1979], there has been a steady increase in patient satisfaction and decrease in dissatisfaction with the outcome of sex reassignment surgery

[...]

This study [J. K. Meyer & Reter, 1979 [only abstract]] focused on patients’ occupational, educational, marital, and domiciliary stability. The results revealed several significant changes with treatment. These changes were not seen as positive

[...]

Participants in that study [Pauly, 1981] had much better outcomes: Among 83 FtM patients, 80.7% had a satisfactory outcome (i.e., patient self report of “improved social and emotional adjustment”) [...] Among 283 MtF patients, 71.4% had a satisfactory outcome

[...]

The findings of Rehman and colleagues (1999) and Krege and colleagues (2001) are typical of this body of work; none of the patients in these studies regretted having had surgery, and most reported being satisfied with the cosmetic and functional results of the surgery.

[...]

A prospective study conducted in the Netherlands evaluated 325 consecutive adult and adolescent subjects seeking sex reassignment (Smith, Van Goozen, Kuiper, & Cohen-Kettenis, 2005 [only abstract]). Patients who underwent sex reassignment therapy (both hormonal and surgical intervention) showed improvements in their mean gender dysphoria scores, measured by the Utrecht Gender Dysphoria Scale. Scores for body dissatisfaction and psychological function also improved in most categories. Fewer than 2% of patients expressed regret after therapy.

[...]

The vast majority of follow-up studies have shown an undeniable beneficial effect of sex reassignment surgery on postoperative outcomes such as subjective well being, cosmesis, and sexual function (De Cuypere et al., 2005; Garaffa, Christopher, & Ralph, 2010 [only abstract]; Klein & Gorzalka, 2009 [only abstract])
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19473181
80% of individuals with GID reported significant improvement in gender dysphoria [...]; 78% reported significant improvement in psychological symptoms [...]; 80% reported significant improvement in quality of life [...]; and 72% reported significant improvement in sexual function [...].
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9570489
The results showed that 3.8% of the patients who were sex reassigned during 1972-1992 regretted the measures taken. [...] The results of logistic regression analysis indicated that two factors predicted regret of sex reassignment, namely lack of support from the patient's family, and the patient belonging to the non-core group of transsexuals. In conclusion, the results show that the outcome of sex reassignment has improved over the years. However, the identified risk factors indicate the need for substantial efforts to support the families and close friends of candidates for sex reassignment.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16362252
After SRS, the transsexual person's expectations were met at an emotional and social level, but less so at the physical and sexual level even though a large number of transsexuals (80%) reported improvement of their sexuality.
Make of those studies what you will. The last three quotes are even from the Swedish study mentioned in the Wall Street article - which compares suicide rates of post-op transgendered people to the general populace rather than transgendered individuals who have not undergone surgery.

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#57

Post by Bad Dragonite » Sat Jan 23, 2016 3:59 pm

^god dang, thank you, at least someone is willing to share information.

I can't read over the entirety of the first article atm on my phone and can only really read through them quickly since I have to work soon but I'll check over them again afterward. From what I gather there's a tendency toward reported better sexuality in general but it sounds like they're the writer feels they're inconclusive. Idk thays just my opinion, though the second article states the low quality evidence, and there are some maybes spread throughout but it at least comes off as unbiased.
idk if I over looked it, but I'm mainly curious about how long after the surgery did they report improvements, since if its to close to after the operation there could be some bias towards reinforcing their decision to have surgery just because the trouble they went through, I think they'll need to be interviewed further in the future if it is too close. I appreciate you posting those. I'll look them over in more detail when I get home.
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#58

Post by I REALLY HATE PRESENTS! » Sat Jan 23, 2016 11:22 pm

[QUOTE="Hell Orb, post: 1582985, member: 25415"]Are you s***ting me? One that doesn't make rash assumptions about causal relationships. There is nothing scientific about assumptions. They are the mark of stupidity.[/quote]

Isn't science full of theories, and aren't theories simply assumptions? The words are practically synonymous so it seems the word is simply preferred because it doesn't carry the negative connotations" assumption" does.

[Quote=Hell Orb]What did it have to do with the subject?[/QUOTE]

You never saw anyone post a picture or even a video that's not entirely related to the topic at hand? I can go find a dozen such examples, if you'd like.

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#59

Post by CaptHayfever » Sun Jan 24, 2016 3:06 am

[QUOTE="I REALLY HATE POKEMON!, post: 1583040, member: 18119"]aren't theories simply assumptions? The words are practically synonymous[/QUOTE] Wrong.
Scientific theories are explanations that have held up to repeated valid testing of one sort or another. Colloquially, people misuse the word "theory" when they should be saying "hypothesis" or "conjecture" or "assumption" or "wild guess". Scientists don't call their first guess a "theory"; they save that label until they're pretty freaking sure it's true.

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#60

Post by Bad Dragonite » Sun Jan 24, 2016 4:52 am

to be fair there are a lot of scientific hypotheses that are considered to be "true facts" but I think we should get back on topic before someone starts trying to bring up evolution and creationism. The point is that I'm pretty sure what was meant is educated guesses and assumptions are to some extent reasonable and are relied on alot by people and an assumption with some education behind it isn't complete idiocy. At least thats what I think was meant. Sorry if I'm putting words in your mouth, just don't think this is the place for that debate.

Edit: Actually here's the definition of "Theory " so we can move on, according to Merriam Webster a theory is "an idea that is suggested or presented as possibly true but that is not known or proven to be true" and oxford dictionary defines it ad "a supposition or system of ideas intended to explain something" and considers it a synonym for hypothesis
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