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Where does The Legend of Zelda go from here?

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Post by Marilink » Sun Apr 23, 2017 4:44 pm

^That's a pretty good analogy, except you still get progression items in LBW past that.
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Post by I am nobody » Sun Apr 23, 2017 7:59 pm

I would not have a problem with opening rune dump if BotW, like LBW, had dungeon items in addition to its "verbs." Getting almost all of my interesting powers at the beginning of the game just means I'm going to get bored of them at the same rate, and it kills one of the main drivers of exploration. I know I'm not going to get anything cool unless it's plot related, and I know I'm not even going to get a lasting upgrade unless its a shrine or a korok.

Even something as simple as MC's kinstone fusions would've helped. It was worth exploring in that game because you might find an obscure fusion partner who'd be the trigger for something cool like the remote bombs or magic boomerang.

[QUOTE="Cravdraa, post: 1628374, member: 21510"]
Also, rain and thunderstorms suck and add absolutely nothing of value to the game. :tongue: [/QUOTE]

100% agree with everything you said except this. Rain sucks, but the lighting strikes are awesome.

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Post by Marilink » Sun Apr 23, 2017 8:50 pm

Imagine if you got a hookshot at some point in this game...
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Post by The Missing Link » Sun Apr 23, 2017 9:46 pm

Crav, I want to respond to you... but I don't want you to feel like this is a beatdown for you not liking the game. XD I agree with a lot of points, but I have more nuanced opinions on some of the points. I just figure it makes sense to discuss a few of them.
Cravdraa, post: 1628368, member: 21510 wrote:Weapons
I am not in love with weapon durability, but I don't outright hate it. Namely because I really haven't fallen in love with specific weapons in the game other than a certain weapon that's the master of all of them that you can't exactly lose. :p That's slightly incorrect because there are weapons that I like a lot, but I find that I either know exactly where to go in order to find another one or I find it frequently enough from enemies or chests that I never am missing a specific weapon in particular.

I do agree that there should be a display that shows you how much damage a weapon can take.
I do agree that the weapons feel a little too fragile (though I don't know if this was a conscious choice based upon internal feedback or not).
I do agree that it'd be a good idea to either craft or repair your own weapons. However, I might disagree with reversing it because... the holistic theme of the game thrives on relatively simple systems. The periodic table of elements in this game actually isn't large. Coming up with a crafting system to build weapons might muddy the waters on this point, but certainly the addition of complexity could drive further simplicity elsewhere to account.
Cravdraa, post: 1628369, member: 21510 wrote:Shrines
I do miss the aesthetically different dungeons.
I do think a lot of them were too short or too simple, but most of them were somewhat interesting (especially if you self-modulate the difficult to getting all the treasure chests in each one).
I do think there could have been a little more variety (especially in the combat ones -- though those were scary at first), though largely that limitation on variety is due to the limited number of verbs, which is a partially function of the go-anywhere-first aspect of the game.
I do miss traditional dungeons.

I don't think the gyroscopic ones were too hateful; there's also only five of them in the whole game, meaning only 4.2% of them.

I don't think that not having pieces of heart out in the world is a bad thing. Sure, a lot of it is because of the indirection (you see a shrine somewhere, and then you wonder how to reach said shrine... and then you have to solve a puzzle), but I don't see the real difference. And a lot of the quests you undertake do lead to shrines, some of which require a lot of sleuthing or observation to discover. Yes, a lot of the non-shrine sidequests do end up being a bit cheaper in that regard, though that's another story. (Tarrey Town is a clear counterexample, though I will admit that there aren't many Tarrey-Town-level sidequests in the game.)
Cravdraa, post: 1628374, member: 21510 wrote:Time wasting
I really never felt the grind for Rupees. Whenever I needed them for something (and usually that was for armour I desperately needed at the time), I sold things. Sometimes yes that meant I needed to go to a store to get things, but usually they were one and the same. The only real issue was that "I didn't know what I would eventually need" so making an educated choice about what I could afford to part with was unknown. That said, I will say to your "in past games, resources were plentiful" comment is that I really felt that the economies of past games were broken. Many of the past games, either Rupees served no purpose in the late game (here's a free Goron Tunic! We normally sell these for 200 Rupees, but you're our millionth visitor congratulations!) or served a useless purpose (oh you want this Magic Armor? You need to grind several thousand Rupees to get it, and then once you spend them all you'll need to get more Rupees to make it work!). This is the first game in a long while that I felt had a working economy. The most I ever needed at one time was about 1300 in one shot, and I had more than enough stuff to make that happen, even if I may have had precious little before I started selling.

Re: shield surfing, you don't take that hit in durability on sand and snow, the main places you use shield surfing. They don't tell you this in the game oddly enough, but it's true.

I do agree tracking down a Goddess Statue (or perhaps a Cookpot) was a little bit annoying, but it really drove the point for me that observation was king. I actually would hold several upgrades' worth of orbs while I finished exploring a zone or two until I went back to claim my upgrades. I didn't really mind.
Lack of progression
You get stronger with hearts? :p And actually hearts are what I've found trigger better weapon drops in the game. Yes, you can get endgame weapons in Hyrule Castle from the beginning, but you don't start seeing weapons with hugely helpful boons all the time until you level up with hearts. Or maybe it's just Shrines. Not entirely sure.

I do think there are a few recipes that are excessive. The five-cooked-Durians-giving-you-20-temp-hearts one is insane. The only thing that balances that is that there are more treacherous enemies that direction in the very beginning of the game, buuuuuuuut persistence will allow players to progressively get further and find loads. However, for me, I found that certain areas in the beginning were a lot harder to get through (omg Akkala is so dangerous early game), but I pushed through and felt damn successful about it. Even the dungeons I felt had a logical order to them in terms of difficulty (Rito > Zora > Goron > Gerudo), but that's largely because of the boss patterns, I'll admit.
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Post by X-3 » Sun Apr 23, 2017 9:59 pm

You can technically recraft the Champion weapons if they break, but the materials are kind of expensive compared to how disposable weapons generally are. As for what causes stronger enemies and weapons to spawn, I'm not sure. I figured it was Shrines or Divine Beasts.

I found Stamina upgrades to be quite useful, especially early on when resources are limited. Plus in practice temporary Stamina boosts are pretty mediocre compared to temporary Hearts.

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Post by Marilink » Sun Apr 23, 2017 10:12 pm

One thing I'll say about the progression of the game: the Blood Moon will check how many dungeons you've completed and spawn stronger enemies and stronger weapons. As the game goes on, there is a gentle difficulty curve that is subtle, but most definitely there.

Also, weapon durability was a hassle in the early game, but already by the first dungeon it had ceased to be a problem for me. I always had enough to get by. And I enjoyed finding weapons in chests, because then I got to use a cool weapon for a while. Maybe I'm too forgiving, but I'd get a Great Flameblade and say, "Sweet!" And I'd use it or hang onto it. Sure, it would break, but...I didn't really care, because it would be useful for me in the time I had it. /shrug

Like TML, I never had trouble with rupees in this game. I always had enough for what I needed, or the potential to sell some stuff to get what I wanted. I only had to grind for rupees once, and that was for the 4th fairy fountain.
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Post by Marilink » Wed May 03, 2017 7:40 am

Hey, thanks to TML, my write-up got featured on Zelda Universe! Check it out, he did a great job re-formatting it and prettying it up.
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Post by Heroine of the Dragon » Wed May 03, 2017 5:43 pm

Congrats, ML... *gives you marshmallows* :D
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Post by glux » Wed May 03, 2017 6:15 pm

I had a video posted to ZU once. It's a pretty cool feeling to have a site you care about post your stuff. Congrats, man!
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Post by X-3 » Wed May 03, 2017 7:54 pm

They gave credit to some dork named Jared though. TML pulled a fast one on you.

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Post by Sim Kid » Wed May 03, 2017 9:35 pm

You know what I'd like to see? it's kind of radical, but bear with me.

....Ganon not being the main antagonist and someone else is. :O

I mean they've done it a few times before. (Adventure, Awakening, Minish Cap, Majora's Mask, also if you include the Oracles despite that they get hijacked by Ganon at the end)

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Post by The Missing Link » Wed May 03, 2017 9:44 pm

^ Hear hear, though I'd also love it to not be this Link/Zelda/Ganondorf thing over and over again. :p Like I don't mind Zelda and Ganondorf being in the game, but CHANGE IT UP.

Make Zelda just a character in the world that you interact with rather than the person everyone is after/you have to save/holy immortal amazing goddess almighty.

Make Ganondorf someone who exists but isn't the big bad. Heck, make him NOT a bad character at all for a change... or someone you have to temporarily ally with to take down something worse.
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Post by Sim Kid » Wed May 03, 2017 9:46 pm

Or oooh, I got an idea! Remember Twilight Princess?

If you HAVE to work Ganon in, try doing something like... make the Big Bad be worshipping Ganon or possessed by Ganon. Twilight Princess fell apart the second Ganondorf appeared again. If it had Zant be the villain throughout the game that would have been great.

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Post by X-3 » Wed May 03, 2017 9:55 pm

Well, the Ganons in LBW, the Oracles and BotW were different enough for me. (empty shell, mindless beast, poisonous eldritch creature) I'll take that over "this is my original villain Blanon, he was just a normal man but then he got greedy and became a giant foot and now he's a jerk and everyone hates him."

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Post by е и ժ е я » Thu May 04, 2017 1:10 am

I liked Twilight Princess just as it was. It's the only game to make Ganondorf actually seem powerful and imposing in a villainous way.
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Post by Random User » Thu May 04, 2017 4:45 am

^Only problem is it stamped on Zant's characterization to achieve that. I weep at this loss because Zant pre-boss battle was doing great at being a menacing force rather than a spoilt kid.

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Post by The Missing Link » Thu May 04, 2017 8:31 pm

^ I was angry about that at first, but then I created the best headcanon to accept it. Zant, being some nerdy kid who attended all of Princess Midna's board meetings hunched behind his Trapper Keeper (propped on its end so that he could hide behind it as if it were a DM screen) is doodling sketches of Midna all day long because he's totally in love with her. He asks her to the Twili Adult Prom or some such thing, and she laughs at his face and makes a mockery of him. It's then he plots his revenge. But he doesn't know how. Enter Ganondorf, who says, "Look, kid, I'll help you get revenge over Midna if you scratch my back." Wonder twin powers activate! But Ganondorf, formless entity he is, has to act through Zant (again, nerdy helpless kid), and so Ganondorf is constantly coaching him on how to act badass by whispering in his ear so that he actually has a chance of coming off intimidating. Of course, this works up until the point after the four Light Spirits are free as now Ganondorf, able to fully enact his own plans apart from Zant (since the Twilight is gone -- "after 10,000 years I'm free" sort of thing), can finally start his manipulation of Princess Zelda. This means that Zant is hopeless to revert to his whiny annoying brat self, which is why he goes all nutso the next time you see him.

Best character ever. I should write for Nintendo.
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Post by X-3 » Thu May 04, 2017 9:17 pm

Zant being nuts is actually great. However, the game wastes it by ultimately using it to signal that Zant can't be the main villain, unlike the calm and collected Ganondorf.

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Post by е и ժ е я » Sat May 06, 2017 7:12 am

Zant is cosplaying at being a cool anime villain but he has no idea how to actually fight or rule anything, he's basically Lemongrab: the Zelda character. I think he's great, and Ganondorf did step all over him which is why Zant is strongly implied to sort of be pulling him under along with himself out of spite.
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Post by Cravdraa » Sat May 06, 2017 8:36 am

I mean, to be fair, neither does Ganondorf. Every time he gets in charge he's just all "BURN EVERYTHING TO THE GROUND IT'S NOT EVIL ENOUGH."

I mean, unless his goal was to rule a town of redead, in which case, good for him, I guess?

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