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Breath of the Wild: The Absolutely Necessary Release Thread

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Post by Marilink » Thu Apr 06, 2017 1:10 pm

I'm cool with that, as long as they bring back traditional dungeons and bosses at some point. I'd be a little disappointed if the next 3D Zelda is more shrine-centric gameplay, tbh.

I would wholeheartedly welcome more BotW DLC and further content in that universe, but there are elements of older Zelda that I would love to see return in this new format.
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Post by Cravdraa » Thu Apr 06, 2017 10:29 pm

yeah. got some mixed feelings about that.
Like, even the original Legend of Zelda had a certain level of progression to it's areas. You needed the raft to get the stepladder, you needed the step ladder to beat most of the end dungeons and get dungeon items like the recorder and magic wand. And you needed the whole Triforce to get into the last dungeon.
And that wasn't a bad thing, in my opinion.
Maybe I'm just not a real fan of the openworld formula, but I actually enjoy limitations initially, because that means later you get to overcome them or move past them. Not once in Breath of the wild have I wondered how I'm supposed to get to someplace or get passed an obstacle, and honestly, I miss it. And I miss being excited to open a new chest and getting a new tool or weapon. In Breath of the Wild, I stopped caring what's in chests a few hours in, cause they're always money, ore (money), a crappy weapon that'll break after one fight that I don't have enough space for anyway, or 5 arrows. Never really a sense of reward. Never any new possibilities that it opens up. Limitations aren't a bad thing if they're introduced naturally, and aren't overly stifling. The best are ones you may not even realize are limitations until after you can suddenly go passed them.

Like, remember when the hookshot could hook onto rocks, pots, chests, and almost anything made out of wood?
Instead of only inexplicable bullseye targets that the badguys have considerately hung on all the walls of their base?
In LttP and OoT it worked on mostly organic parts of the environment. If the bridge was out and you hadn't played a zelda game before and didn't know about the hookshot, it didn't look like an artificial roadblock, it looked like a problem, sure, but also a natural part of the environment. You'd see the gap and maybe think you had to find another way across. And then when you got the hookshot, holy crap, you could cross it and it would also open up a dozen other options.

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Post by The Missing Link » Fri Apr 07, 2017 7:59 am

[QUOTE="My Potions Are Too Strong For You Traveller, post: 1626847, member: 25415"]I will say that it certainly could benefit from more varied enemy types depending on the region. Icy/Fire Lizalfos, Keese, or whatever is not exactly the most compelling dynamic. I prefer the old LttP method of altogether new species which simply retain largely the same behavior, if we're to have minor variants overall.[/QUOTE]
This is something I've been pondering myself. I keep counting in my head the number of "non-boss" creatures in the game sans variations:
* Bokoblins, Moblins, and Lizalfos (plus their skeleton versions)
* Keese, Chuchus, Octoroks, Pebblits, Wizzrobes, Wolves (are they really enemies?)
* Lynels, Guardians, and Yiga
* Hinoxes, Taluses, and Moldugas

That's effectively 15 types of enemies (with admittedly some degree of variation between them all).

Looking at the original Legend of Zelda, we have:

Armos, Bubble, Darknut, Gel, Ghini, Gibdo, Goriya, Keese, Lanmola, Leever, Likelike, Lanmola, Moblin, Moldorm, Octorok, Peahat, Pols Voice, Rope, Stalfos, Tektite, Vire, Wallmaster, Wizzrobe, Zol, and Zora.

Holy Hyrule Compendium, Batman! The original game has at least 10 (if you count Bubble as an enemy instead of a Trap) more non-boss enemies in the game.

I am admittedly scratching my head at this one. I was hoping there'd be a little more variation, but there isn't. :/
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Post by Marilink » Fri Apr 07, 2017 8:20 am

It was nice to see the return of Lynel and traditional Octoroks, though. But yeah, overall it was unfortunate to see such little variety throughout the world.
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Post by The Missing Link » Fri Apr 07, 2017 8:33 am

Granted, I still enjoy fighting all of them. Buuuuuut...
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Post by X-3 » Fri Apr 07, 2017 4:08 pm

Wizzrobes are kind of weird in that there's two for each element and you see all 6 much earlier than you see the other enemy variants. They're also pretty uncommon and they don't drop any materials.

I wouldn't mind seeing another open-world Zelda if it's done as well as BotW, though I'm not sure if they can revisit Hyrule again so soon. I'll always have a thirst for dungeon crawling though.

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Post by е и ժ е я » Fri Apr 07, 2017 4:55 pm

[QUOTE="The Missing Link, post: 1626947, member: 19860"]This is something I've been pondering myself. I keep counting in my head the number of "non-boss" creatures in the game sans variations:
* Bokoblins, Moblins, and Lizalfos (plus their skeleton versions)
* Keese, Chuchus, Octoroks, Pebblits, Wizzrobes, Wolves (are they really enemies?)
* Lynels, Guardians, and Yiga
* Hinoxes, Taluses, and Moldugas

That's effectively 15 types of enemies (with admittedly some degree of variation between them all).

Looking at the original Legend of Zelda, we have:

Armos, Bubble, Darknut, Gel, Ghini, Gibdo, Goriya, Keese, Lanmola, Leever, Likelike, Lanmola, Moblin, Moldorm, Octorok, Peahat, Pols Voice, Rope, Stalfos, Tektite, Vire, Wallmaster, Wizzrobe, Zol, and Zora.

Holy Hyrule Compendium, Batman! The original game has at least 10 (if you count Bubble as an enemy instead of a Trap) more non-boss enemies in the game.

I am admittedly scratching my head at this one. I was hoping there'd be a little more variation, but there isn't. :/[/QUOTE]
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Post by The Missing Link » Fri Apr 07, 2017 7:59 pm

^ Slight variation of the same enemy. Heh. The same deal as Stalkoblins and whatever.

There are actually more than one Stalhinox.
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Post by е и ժ е я » Sat Apr 08, 2017 5:21 am

[QUOTE="The Missing Link, post: 1627025, member: 19860"]^ Slight variation of the same enemy. Heh. The same deal as Stalkoblins and whatever.

There are actually more than one Stalhinox.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, somewhat a variation although his behavior is definitely markedly different in some ways. His eyeball can actually fall out and he pries ribs off himself to batter you. Cool stuff. But yeah, I definitley think a GIANT SKELETON could have been pretty much ANYTHING OTHER THAN AN EXISTING ENEMY. I mean, they took the easy way out so they could re-use their (admittedly expansive and awe-inspiring quantity of) enemy animations. I really think someone could've just re-rigged the same bones to a new model with appropriate lengths, though.

Also, you can't really stick in a GIGANTIC SIZE OF A MANSION sort of enemy skeleton and not have me wishing there were one of those guys moving around somewhere. It's just too good to pass up.

But overall, I'd say it's the sort of stuff that an expansion/DLC could easily address, so on. It's got me thinking in new ways about what I want added on and there's a clear path for improvement as well, based on the new features and the much-less-stale mechanics here. I can think of stuff like using magnesis to adhere to metal surfaces ala classic ninja gaiden, flying in and landing on the heli-guardians and hanging off them as one imagines you might be able - because the game mechanics could sustain it and they've done a lot to make similar things work.

Just the presence and the near perfect execution of the Lynels has me wanting them to delve properly into their backlog of creatures, though. There is a versatile bestiary at their beck and if they won't use it, why not?

If they do another game or a relevant expansion any time soon, I hope it builds on top of what they've already got. Enough of this clearing the slate, there is enough here that is completely perfect and scalable that they should just be filling it out and making new worlds in which these creatures and people may exist.


Oh, and honestly. I don't mind the borders being these sort of natural limits that just exceed the abilities of the player, but it would be nice if they'd consider something more interesting than a gust of wind from time to time. Having a literal swarm of a monster absolutely devour you or having Ganon's power draw you back in would make sense. Something that says a thing you as the player want to overcome has been solved by your completing the game would be lovely.

But really, I'm just glad the world finally can be seen to exist far beyond what was contrived for the player. The sheer scale of the game world is good, but it's also really very very important for world building to make sure that not everything is contrived to suit the game rules and so on, or it will all just stink of simulation so heavily that there is never any just *being* in the game. This game has done very well to beat back the borders and those limitations that have been hanging around the series' neck ever since they moved the camera behind the player and then had to basically show us that there really was nothing beyond the wall that was intended to keep us on task.

Anyway, long story short: This is the Hyrule that Wind Waker so rudely flaunted at us before that dickfaced King Boatf***er sacrificed it to his ludicrous principles, after making you do all the dirty work to get there safely. The only thing we need now is more of it, deeper dungeons, more enemies, more rewards, more tricks and abilities.
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Post by Marilink » Sat Apr 08, 2017 6:42 am

^minor nitpick, but I think "King Dickfaced ****" might have a better flow

Maybe with a numeral afterward. The Third.
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Post by The Missing Link » Sun Apr 09, 2017 5:06 am

^^ Yeah, I get you. But I could easily then say that a red Bokoblin wielding a bow is entirely different to a silver Bokoblin wielding a stick; both attack differently, both have different levels of AI and strategy, but at the same time they're effectively variations on a theme.

The Stalfos theme just happens to include a "head-like" component that must be killed once the body has been stunned or defeated and a body that can reform if said component isn't defeated.
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Post by е и ժ е я » Sun Apr 09, 2017 5:29 am

[QUOTE="The Missing Link, post: 1627140, member: 19860"]^^ Yeah, I get you. But I could easily then say that a red Bokoblin wielding a bow is entirely different to a silver Bokoblin wielding a stick; both attack differently, both have different levels of AI and strategy, but at the same time they're effectively variations on a theme.[/QUOTE]
Definitely it's one of the reasons why id Software's RAGE was so heavily criticised by longtime fans, because the enemies had a ridiculous multitude of behaviors and animations which were not identifiable immediately based on their appearance. Basically, the variation was largely still there but it was not visible. I don't necessarily require more enemy behavior, some slight variation is fine, but there's this huge plethora of enemies and it's oftentimes good to not necessarily know of what capabilities they might possess. They should have been thinking a little more out-of-the-box in that regard. This has become a more pronounced issue starting with Skyward Sword. It's almost strange to see them go from Link Between Worlds to this same issue, but I realise they are actually different teams.

That all aside, it's still got that problem of the 3D Zeldas where all of the enemies are active and will seek you out for a confrontation. Sometimes random behavior patterns and environmental hazards being characterised is a much better approach.
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Post by I am nobody » Sun Apr 09, 2017 7:40 am

Early thoughts after finishing my first Guardian Beast:
[spoiler]
Positives:
- I like the world design. Most of the town's I've found so far (Zora's Domain being the exception) have been believable as places people would actually live, and there's a good variety in terms of both cultures and environments. Extra credit for actually having lightning strikes, which look incredible.
- Combat is generally solid. I'm glad to have more options than just hit-and-run despite pouring all of my upgrades into stamina.
- CHECKPOINTS. I get OHKO'ed a lot per the above, so I'd probably have ragequit the game by now if I was losing more than 30 seconds by dying.
- Equipment variety is great so far. I'm okay with the concept of weapon durability because of said variety.
- I was worried about the shrines, but my first 13 have all been unique and enjoyable.

Negatives:
- Zelda and Mipha have terrible voice acting. I'm almost always in favor of adding VO to games, but Nintendo has to put more effort into casting than this if they're going to continue. Major characters can't be this bad.

- I've upgraded my stamina three times and it is now almost tolerable, but I still don't understand why it's in the game. Holding and releasing B every (now) 15 seconds is not fun. Falling off a mountain because I misjudged my stamina or because a ledge that looks flat apparently isn't is not fun. Instantly drowning after falling off something is not fun. If they wanted to limit exploration, they should've used item gates or overpowering enemies. Both of those are ultimately more compelling to get past, and they don't hold back unrelated gameplay.

- Why don't weapons have durability bars?

- The water Guardian Beast boss requires arrows to defeat, but the dungeon itself does not appear to contain more than a handful of arrows, and I didn't see any way to replenish in the fight. It didn't happen to me, but considering how many arrows that boss needs and how many more you're required or encouraged to use in the dungeon, it seems almost guaranteed that some people will reach the last stage of the boss and then realize they can't beat it without leaving the dungeon to go scavenge for arrows. That's a bizarre design decision.

- Every sidequest I've found so far has been MMO-level garbage. Catch 10 crickets. Bring me a sword. Bring me some screws. That said, I've heard there are better ones hiding elsewhere.

- This is going to sound nitpicky, but one of the most disappointing things about this game so far is how people react to my magic bombs. It reminded me of Okami early on with Kakariko village, and Okami established an expectation that I can blow the **** out of any NPC that annoys me with bombs. In BotW, some NPCs don't even react to bombs, and none of them do cartwheels through the air when I detonate. This makes me sad, and it's jarring considering how otherwise emotive and reactive the NPCs are. I'm also sad that, at least so far, there aren't any ninja babies twitch-dodging my attacks like in TP.
[/spoiler]

I'm enjoying it, but I don't expect to be adding to the 10/10s or 9/10s it's been getting unless there's a big jump in quality coming up.

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Post by The Missing Link » Sun Apr 09, 2017 8:32 am

^
[spoiler]Let's be honest: Mipha also has crappy lines in the game.[/spoiler]
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Post by Marilink » Sun Apr 09, 2017 8:38 am

You know, I didn't think Zelda's VO is as bad as everyone says, especially in the latter parts of the game. Mipha...yeah. But Zelda didn't bother me.
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Post by The Missing Link » Sun Apr 09, 2017 8:43 am

I didn't realise it until later, but Mipha's dialogue being what it is is because
[spoiler]The memories that are centred around each of the Champions are there, in part, to introduce their abilities.
[spoiler]Daruk shows off his protection ability. Urbosa shows off her lightning fury. And Rivali shows off his updraft gale. So therefore Mipha needed to show off her healing ability.[/spoiler][/spoiler]
They're still dumb lines, but you know.

As far as Zelda is concerned, I really don't mind her lines as much. The only thing that I think is jarring is that hers is the only British accent in the entire heap. One would think that Zelda would have the same accent as her father would, wouldn't ya think? The king doesn't have the same Britishy goodness in her voice. Granted, I think Zelda's voice fits her personality super well, but in terms of creating a world? Well, it kind of goes to show that Nintendo's voice acting selections didn't really fall into a line where they're really planning out some long-term plan.
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Post by I am nobody » Sun Apr 09, 2017 9:18 am

Zelda's writing is at least acceptable, but her voice sounds like they woke the actress up at 3 AM and said "we're recording RIGHT NOW." If they were trying to convey being exhausted after a century of fighting Ganon, there are better ways to do that than very... slowly... telling... me... things... I... already... know...

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Post by X-3 » Sun Apr 09, 2017 1:20 pm

In the end, I was right about voice acting. :cool:

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Post by Valigarmander » Sun Apr 16, 2017 9:59 pm

I thought about updating my old sword strength chart to include the arsenal from BotW, but the elevators relative strengths don't line up anymore. I have fury.

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Post by I REALLY HATE POKEMON! » Mon Apr 17, 2017 3:12 am

[QUOTE="X-3, post: 1627163, member: 27765"]In the end, I was right about voice acting. :cool: [/QUOTE]

Voice acting done right is still ideal. Nobody wants bad acting (unless it's bad enough to be good).

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