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?? crucial plot info for Mother 3 seems to be left out of most discussions and synopses

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Post by Marilink » Mon Apr 03, 2017 7:44 am

I love reading your long-winded thoughts on these games, AD, even if I have nothing to add/react at this time.

But I will say, if you haven't discovered the Mother 3i Soundtrack yet, you've gotta give it a listen.
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Post by Cravdraa » Mon Apr 03, 2017 10:49 am

Wait! I just remembered something that I'm genuinely upset at myself for forgetting to let you know about.

So when they were translating the game they found this secret memo. It was a menu that had game tips and little story reminders in it and plot points and generally fleshed out the world a little in a quirky Mother 3 sort of way.
It updates and adds new things as you play through the game and it actually holds a few little tidbits that aren't given otherwise.
It also gets a few things wrong, so they were still changing the game when they quit supporting it.

Anyway maybe you found it already, cause I know if you satisfy the right conditions the translators made a frog tell you how to get it in the credits there. But if not, just highlight the "Status" icon in your menu and hit L & R.

It tells you a bellybutton-related secret.

There's also a hardmode which you can access by setting the player name to "HARD MODE". Doubles Enemy HP and buffs their other stats. I didn't personally find it too difficult but it makes for a fun challenge if you ever play it again.

Anyway, I'm gonna make a much bigger post in response, but I don't have the time right now.

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Post by Daos » Mon Apr 03, 2017 12:09 pm

[SPOILER]One of the things you didn't really touch upon yet that I found pretty interesting. I remember being disappointed for most of the game that there was only one town where in Mother 2 (Earthbound) there were multiple towns. Of course near the end of the game you discover the reason why. It was one of those moments where I was like "Oh, well I guess that is a pretty good reason and they were not just being lazy."[/SPOILER]

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Post by SmoothOperator » Mon Apr 03, 2017 11:28 pm

[USER=30977]@Apollo the Just[/USER]

I think that TaneTane Island was one of the most thought provoking points in Mother 3. Getting to see dark parts of the main characters that you wouldn't have known about otherwise really made the place stand out. I remember thinking that I wished it was more lie "Moonside" in some respects tho. A Varity of bizarre monsters instead of a single fake monster replacing common enemies would be one thing I's liked to see.

When you get the chance I'd love to hear your thoughts on that part of the game.

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Post by Cravdraa » Tue Apr 04, 2017 11:15 am

Okay, so here we go.

[spoiler] It's harder to really narrow this down, because in a lot of ways Mother 3 is a more complex game, thematically.
Apollo mentioned nature vs technology so that's a good place to start. While that's certainly a theme, the stronger message I got out of it was more anti-materialism. Maybe even more anti-capitalism, which kinda goes hand in hand since capitalist societies tend to be materialistic by their very nature.
There's more than a few places where the game shows that yeah, technology can do some pretty great things that make your life easier, but is any of it really necessary? The people of Tazmily covet things because they're told they'll make them happy, but it also repeatedly goes out of the way to show that none of them really seem any happier. The more they care about things the less they care about eachother.
If some people were a few hours late getting home in a rainstorm, do you think the people of 3 years later Tazmily would all form a search party to look for them? Would they even notice?
Most of the characters have a growing sense of callousness. The person next door's problems belong to the person next door. Even towards their own family members.

One of the only exceptions I can think of are Abbot and Abbey, and while they stockpile things like the rest of the village they also never miss an opportunity to remind you that what they really care about is eachother. Repeatedly. They're kinda insufferable.

It's definitely meta as all heck. Often times the new, strange, and uncomfortable changes for Lucas are familiar and even exciting to us. The game goes out of it's way to make us see ourselves in the badguys and the changes to this world, without pulling any punches or leaving any doubts that, YES they are the badguys. This is cranked up to 11 once you reach Newpork. Cultural references from all over the world. EARTHBOUND references. These are things that you, as a player want to see. An arcade, just like in Onett. Enemies from Earthbound and mother 1. NPCS from Earthbound and mother 1. Actual scenes from EB playing in the movie theater, and baseball bases and baseball caps and frying pans. When people were first playing though the game a LOT of people were upset that it didn't have more in common with the rest of the series. Well here you get to chapter 8 and the game KNOWS this is what you wanted. and it GIVES it to you. It says, here, have all the stuff you've been wanting.
It makes it clear that what you wanted. what you're enjoying and is getting a reaction from you, is also something the bad guys want. Then you start climbing the tower and it makes it personal: It makes it clear that this is also what Porky wants. What he wants more than anyone else.
That ferryboat ride at the end with all the EB things, on a boat that looks like Ness's house where it starts blasting a remix of Pollyanna: if you look up that track in the music player, it's titled "Somebody's memories"
Who's memories are they? From a meta point of view they're obviously yours. But in game, they, like everything else in that tower, belong to Porky. They're his memories and it's clear that they're the ones that he hold most dearly. You and Porky have the same fond memories.
The game goes out of it's way to point out that you have a lot in common with Porky. Probably more than you do with anybody in your party, really. That you enjoy the same things, and get excited by the same things. That you both wanted the world of mother 3 to be more similar to EarthBound's.

And it does this while simultaneously doing it's absolute best job to make it clear that he's an absolute monster and completely unsympathetic. Giygas may have been a primal evil force, but the atrocities that Porky commits are far more cruel. Viciously so. And his only motivation was to amuse himself.

I remember reading an interview with Itoi in which he stated that most stories try to invoke feelings. Happiness, saddness, fear, anger. He said that he wanted to make people feel awkward. That sort of feeling you get when you're standing in line at a store late at night because you need to pick something up, while the one cashier slowly rings the 3 people ahead of you up, and the guy behind you is maybe a little too close and kinda smells a little. He said that he wanted to make people uncomfortable. Little disappointments like an empty house with nothing in it or a present with nothing good in it. Or strange situations you're not sure how to respond to. Because while they're not as readily emotionally charged, those sorts of moments really stick with a person. Maybe they challenge you on some level, or maybe you just think back later and realize that it was just strange. But the point is that you remember them.

But in spite of all this, the message of the game is such an overwhelmingly positive one. On that absolutely believes in the beauty of the world and the ability of humanity to pull together and help eachother.

Pointing out the game's commentary AS a game was really insightful and I'm not sure I ever looked at it from quite that angle before. It was so well said I don't think there's any thing I can add to it, but I'm definitely looking at that aspect with a new light now. Just wanted to mention it cause it's be a crime not to. Thank you. [/spoiler]

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Post by Marilink » Tue Apr 04, 2017 11:45 am

Apollo mentioned nature vs technology so that's a good place to start. While that's certainly a theme, the stronger message I got out of it was more anti-materialism. Maybe even more anti-capitalism, which kinda goes hand in hand since capitalist societies tend to be materialistic by their very nature.
This is well said. Technology is a means by which the game comments on a broader theme of materialism and greed. But the technology angle is definitely there, as is evident already in the game's title screen/box art:

Image

Chrome and wood in conflict, much like the city of Tazmily and the development of the Mother 3 World, for better or for worse. But the technology aspect is mainly a vehicle for greed and materialistic/capitalistic desires.
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Post by Daos » Tue Apr 04, 2017 12:30 pm

I love the fact that we can take this much out of a video game. Just to add something to your post about the title screen ML. [SPOILER]It's worth noting the title screen at the end is different. Gone are the metal bits. Now it is just wood and the earth.[/SPOILER]

Image[DOUBLEPOST=1491323426,1491323238][/DOUBLEPOST]Also, did you ride the green train? The green train is fun too.

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Post by Apollo the Just » Tue Apr 04, 2017 1:24 pm

I didn't ride the green train and I also totally forgot to go and get owned by the Porky statue after getting Boney back. W h o o p s. REPLAY VALUE.....

[USER=21510]@Cravdraa[/USER] :

I didn't even think about that until you pointed it out. Damn. I love this game.

Although to be honest my reaction was less "these are Porky's values and memories and they're also mine; I'm more like Porky than any of my party" (which is still definitely intended, since Tazmily becoming a horror for Lucas around ch4 is kind of guiltily familiar and exciting to the player, the music is energizing, and.. yeah. damn); mine was more "**** off Pokey you weren't even there for that" and "you could've been part of that adventure if you weren't such a little ****, don't claim it's yours now". "Best friend's hat" my ass you did your darndest to get him murdered my dude.

**** Pokey.
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Post by Cravdraa » Tue Apr 04, 2017 1:43 pm

You know, the implications are really pretty scary when you look at it. Over time he clearly developed an obsession with Ness and the rest and has been time-stalking him. I'm sure you're aware there are plenty of dark fanfics about Pokey getting his revenge. I'm not so sure though. Not just because it wouldn't really fit the themes of either games, but he's a sad and petty individual, but for all of his big show, he seems to regard that adventure as his "prime."
Porky is mean-spirited bully, given a frightening amount of power and yet for all of that, he peaked at the age of, what? 13? and this eternity since then, nothing has ever been able to compare. And now he has another literal eternity alone.

Did you notice he had the fast food place staffed by robots designed to look like his mother? That's all she was to him. That's all anyone was to him. A way to serve him. If he'd even managed to get the better of chosen four in any significant way, he's have gotten tired and bored of his victory just like anything else and certainly wouldn't still be viewing that as his glory days.

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Post by Daos » Tue Apr 04, 2017 1:55 pm

You know, even though Pokey made fun of Giygas he became a lot like him.

He became obsessed with Ness and it drove him insane.

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Post by Marilink » Tue Apr 04, 2017 1:56 pm

I have a question for you guys.

What happens immediately after the events of Mother 3?

You get to walk around on the black end screen and the characters talk to you, the player. But what happens to the world? Is it basically a "reset" button? Does anyone survive what happens? Could anyone?
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Post by I REALLY HATE POKEMON! » Tue Apr 04, 2017 2:00 pm

According to Itoi, Pokey will still be around even after the end of the universe, so at least he survived.

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Post by Daos » Tue Apr 04, 2017 2:01 pm

[QUOTE="Marilink, post: 1626672, member: 23215"]I have a question for you guys.

What happens immediately after the events of Mother 3?

You get to walk around on the black end screen and the characters talk to you, the player. But what happens to the world? Is it basically a "reset" button? Does anyone survive what happens? Could anyone?[/QUOTE]

I think that is supposed to be up to you to decide. My guess has always been a sort of reset which is why the logo changes.

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Post by Cravdraa » Tue Apr 04, 2017 2:42 pm

I think it's a reset button, yeah.
I've heard people say that they all died and they're in the afterlife now, but I don't buy it. For one, Porky is there, alive and well.
The dragon is said to be the power of the earth itself. Lucas released that power and set it free. And the world was reborn. (And I think it also protected everyone.)

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Post by Apollo the Just » Tue Apr 04, 2017 5:39 pm

I definitely think of it as a reset button. The old world was destroyed and a new one was created.

This is probably just because I always have Persona 3 on the mind but the end of Mother 3 reminded me the actual meaning of the "death" tarot card: interpreting the end of something as a rebirth into something new.
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Post by CaptHayfever » Tue Apr 04, 2017 5:47 pm

[QUOTE="Apollo the Just, post: 1626669, member: 30977"]mine was more "**** off Pokey you weren't even there for that" and "you could've been part of that adventure if you weren't such a little ****, don't claim it's yours now". "Best friend's hat" my ass you did your darndest to get him murdered my dude.[/QUOTE] This.
The player has a fair claim to Earthbound nostalgia, because the player was present with Ness's crew & helped them save the world (presuming one plays EB first, of course). That's totally different from the perspective Porky's coming from, at first faking that he was helping, then rejecting the opportunity to help further, & then actively opposing Ness.

And remember, "I'm-a Luigi, number one!"

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Post by Apollo the Just » Tue Apr 04, 2017 6:00 pm

^ which now I think about it is kinda brilliant. Game took Earthbound nostalgia and presented it via the WORST AND OBJECTIVELY LEAST HELPFUL CHARACTER FROM EARTHBOUND to personally piss *us* off from beyond the fourth wall, too.

**** Pokey.
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Post by Marilink » Wed Apr 05, 2017 8:00 am

unrelated: one of my favorite scenes in the game

[MEDIA=youtube]OGjKAuMjuO4[/MEDIA]

Very little was accomplished!
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Post by Marilink » Wed Apr 05, 2017 1:06 pm

btw AD, did you notice that the Magypsies were named after the Medieval Church Modes? (Ionian, Dorain, Phrygian, Lydian, Mixolydian, Aeolian, Locrian?)

[spoiler]And did you notice the foreshadowing musical motif that connected Fassad to the Magypsies?[/spoiler]
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Post by Apollo the Just » Wed Apr 05, 2017 1:14 pm

^ I'M AN IDIOT. TOOK A DAMN CLASS ON THOSE AND TOTALLY MISSED THE CONNECTION.

[spoiler]I didn't notice the motif until the very last encounter with Fassad. I had a slight suspicion before then but it wasn't until that sewer scene, after I had heard the motif a million other times, that I caught on and it was confirmed, at which point I was like "YOOOOOO" and then when I got to the pink shell I was like "AAAAAYYYYYYYYYYYYY"[/spoiler]
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