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?? crucial plot info for Mother 3 seems to be left out of most discussions and synopses

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Post by I REALLY HATE POKEMON! » Sat Mar 18, 2017 9:58 pm

Tony the Tiger is gay? THEY'RE FFFFFFFABULOUS!

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Post by Apollo the Just » Sat Mar 18, 2017 10:20 pm

Thank you for your contribution to this conversation. Anyway, Tony the Tiger is probably gay too, yeah.

been thinkin nonstop abt this game after beating it. idk whether starting mother 3 immediately will be a very good or very bad idea.
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Post by I REALLY HATE POKEMON! » Sun Mar 19, 2017 2:00 am

I'd let Eb sink in first, maybe dabble in Mother 1 first because it's a simpler experience.

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Post by Apollo the Just » Sun Mar 19, 2017 2:47 am

I kind of want to look into Mother 1 bc I know it gives more background on Giygas too. That's a good idea. I'm not sure I'm ready to be murdered by 3 just yet
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Post by Marilink » Sun Mar 19, 2017 4:17 am

Nah tbh, just ride the wave and dive headfirst into 3
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Post by е и ժ е я » Sun Mar 19, 2017 12:18 pm

I still haven't played Mother 3. I really want to say I'll race you through it but I still have most of Zelda, so.
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Post by Apollo the Just » Sun Mar 19, 2017 12:41 pm

You would win the race anyway bc I grind an unnecessary amount.
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Post by Marilink » Sun Mar 19, 2017 1:44 pm

I am hotly anticipating your live blogging of Mother 3. That game is so great
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Post by Daos » Mon Mar 20, 2017 9:29 am

Has anyone else ever discovered just how powerful PSI Flash can truly be? I know I have had experiences in the past before where it instantly killed bosses like Diamond Dog and even Ness's Nightmare.[DOUBLEPOST=1490016564,1490016029][/DOUBLEPOST]Also, Earthbound still has one of my favorite endings in a game to date. The way they let you freely explore the world and talk to everyone is very unique. Then the actual credit roll with the photographs of you and your friends..."I miss you." Sorry, I think someone is cutting onions around here.

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Post by Marilink » Mon Mar 20, 2017 11:42 am

btw I'm gonna leave this here because it makes me cry

[MEDIA=youtube]v9Pu7dCMsvU[/MEDIA]
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Post by Cravdraa » Mon Mar 20, 2017 11:54 am

[QUOTE="Marilink, post: 1625267, member: 23215"]Hey [USER=21510]@Cravdraa[/USER] , I'm looking for this article that I read online a while ago about EarthBound and Postmodern thought. Got any idea of what I'm talking about?[/QUOTE]

Sorry, I think I remember that but I wouldn't know which one you're specifically talking about. A quick google search for EarthBound Postmodernism brings up a number of results.

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Post by Marilink » Mon Mar 20, 2017 12:11 pm

^I did that as well, but I couldn't find quite what I was looking for. Alas.
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Post by Cravdraa » Mon Mar 20, 2017 1:04 pm

Okay, and as for your remaining questions, I've got a few answers that are part speculation, part lost in translation, part info from other games, etc.

"weird loopy branch thing sticking out of the ground."

(this one is surprisingly deep)
[spoiler] In Mother 1, there's a very different magicant, and it can be entered through this thing that looks like a pink spiral. This is mistranslated in EB0, but in Mother 1 it's called a "god's tail" and it has a strong connection to magicant, specifically that they can be used to enter somebody's magicant. This is decades of fan discussion, but I remember reading that the "weird loopy branch" is in fact meant to be a 16-bit god's tail. Why it would be in that cave? hmmm... why indeed. The cave itself is kinda similar visually to the ones in Mother 1, and they both serve as entrances to someplace else,but beyond that... [spoiler]People speculate it marks the spot where Giygas entered his own magicant in order to try and remove the weakness that caused him to fail his first invasion[/spoiler][/spoiler]

"Giygas fight in its entirety."

[spoiler] So to my understanding, and some of this is implied and interpreted and other parts were sorta lost in translation or from supplemental japanese-only materials, When he actually had a mind, Giygas became obsessed with Ness. There's this thing called the "Apple of Enlightenment" that can answer questions about the future. It outright TOLD Giygas that his attack on Earth would fail and that he would be destroyed by Ness and friends if he tried. Now, Giygas had already failed once in Mother 1 and it's didn't go so well for him. So throughout your adventure he takes more and more extreme measures as you get closer and closer to him. Until he ends up like you see him at the end of the game. To clarify, Giygas was an alien that you encounter in mother 1. Most of the english fandom refers to the alien form as "Giegue" which was an alternate translation of his name just to distinguish between them, but it's 100% confirmed that they're the same being. [/spoiler]

"Mani Mani Statue"

[spoiler] The Mani Mani statue is a device that spreads Giygas's influence. It also has the ability to create illusions and plant a seed of evil in those that get close to it. This is another "lost in translation" or maybe just like cultural differences, but apparently in Mother 2 it's supposed to be evident that Ness's nightmare doesn't just look like the mani mani statue, it's actually the seed of evil that it created in him that is actively holding him back. The evil influence that it had on Ness when you first encountered it. It was probably planted so close to Ness's house for this very reason. It's also the reason why in Buzz Buzz's timeline the Chosen 4 failed and Giygas won; without the soundstone Ness had no way to enter his own mind and remove this evil once it had been planted. [/spoiler]

"time travel questions."

[spoiler] Yes, throughout the game, each time you visit a "Your Sanctuary" location, along with the melody there you also get a fragment of this memory. PSI in the mother universe ties into things like clairvoyance and telepathy. Seeing the past and the future. Witnessing things across time.
Ness saw a small cute puppy.
Ness saw a glimpse of his mother when she was younger.
Ness saw a baby bottle.
Ness heard his mother's voice.
NEss saw a red cap.
Etc...
These are all small bits of that memory that he's trying to remember.
A memory of him being there when he was a baby, to witness the moment when his own psychic powers first awakened.
Remembering this moment causes a psychic feedback loop that sends him to magicant.

Giygas's time travel is an entirely different thing. He can't risk directly changing the past because thanks to the events of mother 1 his own history is tied to this planet. Instead, he's set up base in the past where Ness and the others should never be able to reach him and is launching his attacks into the present. Which I think you understood, but you'd be surprised how many people misinterpret this to mean that you're going back in time to fight Giygas when he was weaker. [/spoiler]

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Post by Cravdraa » Mon Mar 20, 2017 3:27 pm

On the subject of mother 1, I actually really like it. gonna spoiler this not because of actual spoilers but because it's huge.
[spoiler]It's got this huuuge detailed world to explore and an almost lonely feel to it like you're a young kid on an adventure in world that's waaay bigger than you. Like really the map coves almost 4x EB's area, so hope you like wandering. It's one of the strangest things I've ever seen in an NES game cause there's huge ridges and forests and valleys and rivers that you can't even get to, but viewed from a map viewer or with a walkthrough walls code it's all there and all logically and consistently connected. It looks like they made a landscape and then just added towns to it wherever they felt like they'd fit? any other game from that era, if you stop and wonder what's on the other side of that mountain, the answer is probably nothing. Here, the answer is inexplicably, the other side of the mountain and a ridge and a valley and a little plateau with flowers on it that you'll probably never see.
It has a lot of similar styled humor and dialog to EB's though maybe not quite as surreal, at least not in the same way. The story is a little more sparce but I love the little details that you do get and the narrative as it unfolds.
It IS however, an NES era JRPG. You'll need to grind. A lot. The battles are unforgiving as there's no rolling HP meter, and the encounters are random.
I think it adds a lot to the series, but if that type of game sounds unpleasant to you, I can't recommend forcing yourself. [/spoiler]

If you DO decide to play it, that opens up the question of what version to play.
[spoiler]
There's the leaked NES rom and EarthBound Beginings on the virtual console.
These are basically the same this. They just took the unreleased rom they'd been sitting on for 2 decades and released it after changing the title.
The translation is a little clunky with some mistakes here and there, and for better or worse it's had some mild localization and censorship changes.

There are a number of patches people have made for the NES version.
Off the top of my head:
1. There's a patch that's supposed to lower encounter rates and remove some of the censorship (and add a star effect to boss battle backgrounds.) I don't think it works very well.
2. There's an EASY MODE patch that lowers encounter rate but triples the amount of money and EXP you get from each battle. Almost too easy, it can let you do some squence breaking that would normally take a ton of grinding, skill and/or luck to pull off. But it's kinda cool too.
3. Mother 25th Anniversary (I'll come back to this one in a second)

There's the GBA patch for Mother 1 & 2
The GBA version has a smaller screen, much brighter colors, and inferior sound quality on the music BUT
the game has been retranslated by the same guy who translated mother 3. It's much more faithful, and less clunky, but on the other hand it's not localized at all (for better or worse) and I felt a lot of the dialog lost it's charm because of the way it's reworded (The guy it a professional translator not a writer, and he's said himself he usually relies on a writer to spice up his translations). The enemy names are boring and kinda suck because of a character limit. However, he also hacked in an "Easy Ring" that you can equip for effects quite similar to the easymode patch up above.

Mother 25th Anniversary patch.
This one is quite different. It uses the translation from the GBA patch, but it also edits or changes quite a bit of dialog. But the biggest difference are the graphics and enemy encounters. The person who made it redrew almost every sprite in the game, changed the palettes and a lot of the graphics too. Changed the battle scripts for a lot of the enemies and adjusted the difficulty.

Finally, there's the Mother Remake hack. It's not out yet, but supposedly it's due out sometime this year maybe, possibly.
It's attempting to literally remake the game using EB's engine with all the pluses and features that would come with that. It's going to use the updated translation from the GBA patch. Areas will be smaller because of EB's smaller mapsize, some areas will be re-envisioned, enemy encounters and battles work similar to EB. I was actually recruited to do some artwork for it years ago. Looking impressive, but no clue when it'll be out.

Of all the different versions, I prefer the Easymode patch for the NES version.
I feel like it's got the most charm and it's not as tedious because of the boosted EXP.

The community mostly seems to prefer the GBA patch, citing the accuracy of the new translation.

I CAN'T recommend the 25th Anniversary patch, even though it's popular, because of my personal interactions with the guy who made it. He approached it with the attitude that it was a bad game (his words) that he was going to improve and I felt like he completely missed the point on some of this stuff. Many of his changes are more subjective than they are straight improvements, imo. Still, a ton of work was put into it and it has some cool features added in, so it still deserves to be mentioned.
[/spoiler]

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Post by Apollo the Just » Mon Mar 20, 2017 6:31 pm

I love this and will respond more in depth later, but I knew I could count on you Crav
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Post by Cravdraa » Mon Mar 20, 2017 7:59 pm

btw here's a rough english translation of the lyrics to smiles and tears, the credits music that plays while you're looking at the pictures in Earthbound.

[spoiler]
I haven’t lived even half as long as adults have,
but I do have plenty of memories in my backpack
My favorite baseball cap, my sneakers with worn-out heels
Deep in my pocket is my worn-down guitar pick
There were some things sad enough to make tears come out,
but you were always by my side
I thought of the two of us as just friends the whole time
I probably loved you without ever realizing it

We walked while we laughed, played, and got hurt
I realized it as we took shortcuts and went in circles:
that even if you can’t believe in everyone
you can’t cast aside a heart you do believe in
You made me stronger just being who you are
Like a gentle wind blowing and swaying the grass
you always walked with a smile

Yes, the two who shared smiles and tears one after the other…..
(I miss you)
…..are now far apart…..
[/spoiler]

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Post by Marilink » Mon Mar 20, 2017 8:31 pm

Mother fanatics are some of my favorite fanatics. Awesome stuff in those posts, Crav.
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Post by Apollo the Just » Tue Mar 21, 2017 12:33 am

Cravdraa, post: 1625355, member: 21510 wrote:Okay, and as for your remaining questions, I've got a few answers that are part speculation, part lost in translation, part info from other games, etc.

"weird loopy branch thing sticking out of the ground."

(this one is surprisingly deep)
[spoiler] In Mother 1, there's a very different magicant, and it can be entered through this thing that looks like a pink spiral. This is mistranslated in EB0, but in Mother 1 it's called a "god's tail" and it has a strong connection to magicant, specifically that they can be used to enter somebody's magicant. This is decades of fan discussion, but I remember reading that the "weird loopy branch" is in fact meant to be a 16-bit god's tail. Why it would be in that cave? hmmm... why indeed. The cave itself is kinda similar visually to the ones in Mother 1, and they both serve as entrances to someplace else,but beyond that... [spoiler]People speculate it marks the spot where Giygas entered his own magicant in order to try and remove the weakness that caused him to fail his first invasion[/spoiler][/spoiler]
This is really, really cool context. Thank you for this.

[spoiler]Taking that speculation a bit further, if we assume the physical god's tail in the underworld is representative of where Giygas entered his own magicant, it's ESPECIALLY interesting that the similar figure in Ness's magicant takes him not from the outside world into magicant, but from his magicant to the place within it that is corrupted by Giygas. So in the context of Earthbound specifically, both versions of the god's tail would correspond to mental spaces of Giygas's influence.[/spoiler]
"Giygas fight in its entirety."

[spoiler] So to my understanding, and some of this is implied and interpreted and other parts were sorta lost in translation or from supplemental japanese-only materials, When he actually had a mind, Giygas became obsessed with Ness. There's this thing called the "Apple of Enlightenment" that can answer questions about the future. It outright TOLD Giygas that his attack on Earth would fail and that he would be destroyed by Ness and friends if he tried. Now, Giygas had already failed once in Mother 1 and it's didn't go so well for him. So throughout your adventure he takes more and more extreme measures as you get closer and closer to him. Until he ends up like you see him at the end of the game. To clarify, Giygas was an alien that you encounter in mother 1. Most of the english fandom refers to the alien form as "Giegue" which was an alternate translation of his name just to distinguish between them, but it's 100% confirmed that they're the same being. [/spoiler]
[spoiler]Yeah, this may or may not have come through from my earlier less cohesive ramblings, but it seemed pretty clear that Giygas became obsessed with Ness because he was foretold as his demise. The game definitely expresses that much clearly, so it makes sense he screams his name as he is defeated and descends into madness.

I'm still curious about why Giygas took on a form reflecting Ness's face, and as to its outbursts about pain/happiness. Is the former just representative of his obsession? This is where my personal speculation is that, since in magicant we see evidence of Giygas infiltrating Ness's mind, I'm wondering if the opposite didn't also come true and Ness (after conquering his nightmare and becoming so overwhelmingly psychically strong?) may have partially or subconsciously infiltrated or influenced Giygas's mind as well. Ness's face could represent this corruption as WELL as Giygas's obsession, and IMO the battle made sense if I visualized it was a combination of Ness's pure and friendly soul + Paula's hopeful prayer that tormented Giygas from the inside and outside. Especially since Giygas is the only other entity capable of using PSI Butts (that is its canon name btw), these parallels are too interesting for me to not extrapolate on.

Also, I interpreted that moment at the last sanctuary - when Ness's thoughts are (or are they?) projected onto the wall - as representative that his powers are becoming so overwhelmingly strong that they are no longer strictly contained to himself, which makes it easier for me to think this.[/spoiler]
"Mani Mani Statue"

[spoiler] The Mani Mani statue is a device that spreads Giygas's influence. It also has the ability to create illusions and plant a seed of evil in those that get close to it. This is another "lost in translation" or maybe just like cultural differences, but apparently in Mother 2 it's supposed to be evident that Ness's nightmare doesn't just look like the mani mani statue, it's actually the seed of evil that it created in him that is actively holding him back. The evil influence that it had on Ness when you first encountered it. It was probably planted so close to Ness's house for this very reason. It's also the reason why in Buzz Buzz's timeline the Chosen 4 failed and Giygas won; without the soundstone Ness had no way to enter his own mind and remove this evil once it had been planted. [/spoiler]
This is really cool and makes a lot of sense. I definitely didn't get that from my playthrough of EB, not sure if it was me missing out on evident clues or if it was lost in translation as you say. Anyway that's sick and this information influenced my response to your bit on Giygas so thank you for that.
"time travel questions."

[spoiler] Yes, throughout the game, each time you visit a "Your Sanctuary" location, along with the melody there you also get a fragment of this memory. PSI in the mother universe ties into things like clairvoyance and telepathy. Seeing the past and the future. Witnessing things across time.
Ness saw a small cute puppy.
Ness saw a glimpse of his mother when she was younger.
Ness saw a baby bottle.
Ness heard his mother's voice.
NEss saw a red cap.
Etc...
These are all small bits of that memory that he's trying to remember.
A memory of him being there when he was a baby, to witness the moment when his own psychic powers first awakened.
Remembering this moment causes a psychic feedback loop that sends him to magicant.

Giygas's time travel is an entirely different thing. He can't risk directly changing the past because thanks to the events of mother 1 his own history is tied to this planet. Instead, he's set up base in the past where Ness and the others should never be able to reach him and is launching his attacks into the present. Which I think you understood, but you'd be surprised how many people misinterpret this to mean that you're going back in time to fight Giygas when he was weaker. [/spoiler]
[spoiler]Yeah, it was clear to me that Ness's visions from the Your Sanctuary locations were him looking back on himself as a baby, but I thought maybe I was reading too much into what I interpreted as him remembering his *infant self* also looking back at his present self. I'm glad it wasn't just me and that this was intentional, because that was an extremely trippy and **** awesome moment.

My biggest regret playing this game was that I accidentally skipped Pink Cloud and got the last melody before the seventh, so the moment of Ness remembering (as a baby) being watched by himself *didn't* immediately lead to Magicant, because instead I had to backtrack and do another dungeon before Magicant happened.

Now that you elaborate on it, I guess it's pretty clear that Ness's moment of time-surpassing psychicness is a *mental* trip, whereas Giygas is *physically* sending his forces through time by alien tech. I guess the wording "Giygas is attacking from the past!" made me think it was his psychic powers and influence that allowed him to do so, which led me to draw that parallel between him and Ness; it makes more sense that the game just meant "he's in the past and sending his dudes to the present" though.

Also, I hate that **** fetus theory so much. So much. Like how do you miss the point that hard. Giygas is attacking FROM THE PAST ya DUMB DUMBS[/spoiler]
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Post by Cravdraa » Tue Mar 21, 2017 1:30 am

On the subject of Giygas it's hard to speculate without giving away some major plot points from mother 1, (and they definitely color and influence the way I look at things), but I definitely think you're on to something there.

[spoiler] It's generally thought that while Ness tried to destroy the evil in himself through magicant, Giygas tried to destroy the good or "weakness" in himself and ended up tearing his own mind appart in the process.
It's really only implied and definitely easier to see with Pokey, but Giygas seems to undergo a parallel journey to Ness's. Even from as early as Threed we're told that Giygas is afraid of Ness. The game even tells us so in the coffee break text scrolls. He tries progressively more extreme measures to stop you as you get closer. It's my personal headcannon that he hasn't been in that formless, mindless state that you face him in for very long. Pokey may have even met him in "person" before it happened. (He sure sounds like he might have talked to him.) He may have even done it as a direct response to Ness entering his own magicant.

SO yeah, I think he was deeply obsessed with Ness, possibly to the point that he was all he thought of.
And to be honest, although nowhere near as extreme, he shows some similar obsessive tendencies towards Ninten in mother 1 too, though those seem to stem from a different source. He may just have an obsessive personality. (This does beg the question of what, if any, relation Ninten has with Ness other than a similar wardrobe, but that's a plot point best not stared at too directly.)

Pokey's dialog seems to state that the first form you fight is actually something called the "Devil's Machine." There's been endless speculation on what exactly it did. I mean, it obviously protected him, since it reflects any form of attack back at you, and it seems to focus his PSI into something less chaotic. but aside from that, people have argued that it does everything from allowing him to think rationally to boosting his power.
They can't agree on what the Ness face is either. I've heard it said that the Ness face might be actually physical, as a way to mock you as it uses your own PSI against you. People have claimed it's actually a reflection of Ness's soul to show that Giygas sees through the robot shell. Or even that he's obsessed with him and thinking about him, like you suggested. Pokey would have us believe that Giygas isn't even aware that we're present. I'm not sure how much we can trust the info Pokey gives us, but assuming he's telling the truth here, all that "Ness" chanting and screaming is either some sort of direct response to Ness's psychic presence, or just Giygas's default mode.
[/spoiler]

Also yes, the fetus theory is like the dumbest thing ever.

Hey, when you beat the game, did you go around and talk to everyone? There are quite a few NPCs with new dialog, some of which I never even knew about for years.

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Post by Apollo the Just » Tue Mar 21, 2017 1:44 am

^ DUH???? Literally the first thing I did was go to Winters and talk to Tony. Best NPC. Also I returned the book to the library, talked to Poo back in Dalaam.... I probably missed some people but I tried to be thorough. I love interactive epilogues.

............I kind of want to dig into the Garden of Eden imagery in this game now. I'm inspired. The "apple of enlightenment" came off to me as pretty obviously referring to the fruit that grants the knowledge of good and evil (which is usually depicted as an apple), and the corrupted place in Ness's mind is literally called the Sea of Eden. Like. That ****'s just begging to have essays written about it. Does this relate to that cake lady talking about id/ego/super-ego, concepts that would be meaningless to humans pre-eden and pre-eating the fruit? A conversation that I might add is required to progress the game? AM I READING TOO MUCH INTO THIS AGAIN??? Probably. But boy howdy do I love reading too much into stuff.
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