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?? crucial plot info for Mother 3 seems to be left out of most discussions and synopses

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Cravdraa
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Post by Cravdraa » Wed Apr 05, 2017 4:10 pm

Interestingly, they've also found unused sprites in the game that make it look like Kumatora might have at one point been the final magypsie. Showing a sort of magical costume change into a very magypsie-looking outfit. It may have been something else entirely though, cause there's also some unused sprites of Duster wearing a similar outfit too.

However, there's also unused dialog that had the final magypsie as a separate character all together, introducing themselves and talking to the party. So eitherway, it seems like that it was a twist that wasn't decided on until VERY late into the game's development.

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Post by Apollo the Just » Wed Apr 05, 2017 4:53 pm

"Well we definitely want this to be a plot twist of some sort, just make a bunch of sprites and we'll pick one later"

I would be so here for Kumatora (((or Duster))) as the last one though like yes please. The final version twist was good too, but. Like. Yknow.
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Post by Cravdraa » Thu Apr 06, 2017 12:31 am

It's really strange cause there's a lot of cut or unused content, particularly from the end of the game that suggests different ending possibilities. Dialog of the main characters talking to eachother. What appear to be transformation battle sprites for Claus. Sprites of what looks like Porky dying.
What makes it particularly strange is that Mother 3 seems to be very faithful to the plot of the cancelled EarthBound/Mother 64.
So much so that many of the screenshots we have of it directly match up, scene for scene, with what we now know were important plot points in mother 3.
It appears that the basic story, plot and settings were already fleshed out to a surprising degree all the way back then, so it's just strange that the details of the ending were apparently up in the air until so late in development.

Well crap, apparently I'm going to talk about the differences between M64 and Mother 3 that we know of.
I wasn't planning to. I was actually going to go to sleep, but look at this. It's happening.
[spoiler]M64 was a lot less subtle, it's subtitle was planned to be "Death/Fall of the Pigking" depending on how it was translated.
We know it followed the same basic story outline, and it was planned to be 12 chapters long instead of 8.
We also have a good idea of what at least 3 of those cut chapters were.

The first was a greatly expanded version of mother 3's prolog that followed a little adventure with Claus and Lucas, it's purpose being to give some more screentime to Claus and Hinawa to let you get to know them better and make the twist more unexpected.
The twins would make their way through "Never-lost cave", a long straight tunnel with absolutely no twists, turns or sidepaths, meant to parody the first dungeon in a lot of RPGs at the time. They'd go swimming in a small lake (There are actually unused sprites in mother 3 of what appear to be Claus and Lucas taking off their shirts and diving into water) and explore an abandoned mineshaft, ending with an exciting minecart ride meant to show off some of the dynamic stuff the DD64 was capable of. (which is probably why it was cut from the GBA version)

When interviewed about the game, Itoi mentioned that you'd play as a lot of different characters, not just kids like the other games. He off-handedly remarked that maybe the strangest was some ideas they had for a dinosaur.
There's actually screenshot of what looks like a playable drago. From it's placement, it's speculated the "drago" chapter probably took place around chapter 3 in the game we got, possibly being the drago that rescues Kumatora, Salsa, and Wes.

Finally, there was talk of a "friendly two-headed seamonster" showing up in the port of the "next town over"
The screenshot looks like a fairly modern setting and the creature looks like a chimera. So it's obviously post timeskip, but really anyone's guess where and how it fit in.

Also interesting, in what appears to be the scene of the party hanging off the masked man's airship, Flint is there instead of kumatora. It seems like he must have been playable for a lot more of the game in early versions.

In early shots of the DCMC, the two lead singers appear to be Lucky and Gorgeous of the Runaway 5. The implication being that they were abducted through time, similar to Dr. Andonuts. Interesting to note then, that Duster takes the name "Lucky" in the final version of mother 3.
(Random funfact: If you name Kumatora "Violet" then the alias she uses in club titiboo is "Kumatora" but if in the Japanese version if you name Duster "Lucky" then the stage name he uses translates to "Plumguy." In the translation, if you name him "Lucky" his stage name is "Gorgeous")

A very early screenshot showed what appeared to be a post-apocalyptic Onett. The end of the world was probably much less of a surprise twist and more of a stated fact earlier on in the game.

Itoi has gone on record stating that the planned ending for the canceled 64 version was going to be darker.[/spoiler]

So that's some stuff apparently.

Edit: found a comparison page I remembered!
http://starmen.net/mother3/beyond_mothe ... nnections/

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Post by I REALLY HATE POKEMON! » Thu Apr 06, 2017 1:01 am

I like Mother 3 a lot but I'd trade it for Earthbound 64 in a heartbeat. I hope a beta is discovered and circulated at some point.

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Post by Apollo the Just » Thu Apr 06, 2017 2:47 am

I am...... so unbelievably glad we got the GBA version. I love the N64 but it was a graphics growing pains era and. holy cripes the game just looks SO INFINITELY BETTER AS MOTHER 3............................ we got a visually polished product rather than one doing its best with what a new era provided............................. gods all bless..........................................

The stuff you're saying got cut is really fricken interesting though, Crav. I would have loved a more extended prologue with Claus and Hinawa pre-tragedy especially.
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Post by I REALLY HATE POKEMON! » Thu Apr 06, 2017 3:03 am

I have to specify that my "Like" was toward the latter half of your post. Retro 3D graphics are great damn it.

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Post by Daos » Thu Apr 06, 2017 9:39 am

[SPOILER]The Lucas and Clause chapter seems nice and I think I would have liked to see that but I agree with Apollo in that I prefer the GBA graphics we got over the N64 graphics. I also think I prefer the late game twist that the rest of the world has been destroyed instead of knowing the whole game but that is just my personal preference. I do remember seeing screenshots of "Earthbound 64" and a lot of them did have Flint in them so I agree he was probably going to play a larger part originally. [/SPOILER]

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Post by Cravdraa » Thu Apr 06, 2017 11:45 am

It's a hard call for me to make. Like, I definitely would have loved EB 64 if it had come out on the N64.

Like, imagine a 2D version of OoT or Majora's Mask. A really well done and polished 2D version.
I think that could be incredible and a lot of fun to play, but there are a lot of aspects of both games that could never be properly translated. Parts where 2D just can't be done in the same way. Try to imagine the 2D version of the aliens invading Romani ranch having anywhere near the same impact. Or a 2D version of the Stone Tower temple.
They couldn't be done. And something very cool and important to the experience of the game would be lost in the process.

Don't get me wrong, if we're just talking graphics, I'll take high quality 2D over low quality 3D in a heartbeat and I totally feel you there. But there's so much more to consider. The game would have come out like 5 years earlier, at least. It would have gotten an OFFICIAL ENGLISH translation. There could be official EarthBound 64 merch. Heck, if it were popular, it's not unlikely that we'd have a highquality "EB64 3D" out on the 3DS by now. I could be complaining about them changing too much in the remake right now!

Then again, there's stuff 2D does well that would never come out as good in 3D, even highquality 3D.
Mother 3 was the largest GBA cart ever made. Most of that space was taken up by music. Even if EB 64 had been on the largest N64 cart, (which was twice as big) it's unlikely they would have had the space to fit the full soundtrack in because of the 3D graphics.

I want both versions.
If any of you can travel to EB64 alternate universe, please pick me up a copy. I've got a copy of Mother 3 I'd like you to send to EB64 Crav too, if it's not too much trouble.

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Post by Apollo the Just » Thu Apr 06, 2017 12:30 pm

If I'm being honest an official English translation isn't even something I care about because I tend to prefer fan translations, fansubs, and scanlations over localizations anyway. I know "localize Mother 3!!!!" is an incredibly common sentiment but the only reason I would want that would be to give Nintendo my money for it; the fan translation is such a completely polished product that it really doesn't leave any need for an official translation at all.

(Merch, though..... you've got me there.)

I guess the reason I feel so strongly about this is that YES, there are ABSOLUTELY things you can only do in 3-D that do not translate anywhere near the same way to 2-D, and vice versa as you've said. But this game specifically was so much better suited to 2D's strengths IMO. The battle system especially, and that was one of my favorite parts of the game. Since it is much more story than exploration based, I really don't think the benefits of 3D would have compensated for the visual loss. Also, this is being nitpicky, but the Claus reveal at the end of the Flint chapter only worked because of the fixed 2D camera angle and was SO IMPACTFUL BECAUSE OF IT. The transformation of Tazmily into something more like Onett read as such because of the similar graphic style.

It's like trying to imagine an N64 Ace Attorney for me. Like..... why........?

It would admittedly be a very different game and I would definitely be curious to try it out, because it might totally prove me wrong and be awesome and capitalize on the strengths of 3D in ways I would never expect (especially bc like I said I'm so fascinated by the cut content). But I'm still glad we got the one we did. It felt like a much more satisfying and cohesive "end" to a trilogy this way.
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Post by Marilink » Thu Apr 06, 2017 1:12 pm

I want Mother 3 localized simply so that I can buy it and show Nintendo that I really do support this franchise. That's part of the reason that I bought EarthBound on VC despite having the original cart in working order (thanks again to Boo), as well as buying EarthBound Beginnings and not actually having played it still.
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Post by Cravdraa » Thu Apr 06, 2017 2:02 pm

I can get that and respect it. I started typing this post up but then was worried that it came off as argumentative, which isn't how it's meant to be at all. Just having fun sharing something I'm kinda surprised to learn I knew more about than I realized. Please don't take this as me arguing that it's somehow bad.
I love the version of Mother 3 we got. In fact, I'm dangerously close to going and playing it again thanks to this topic.

We know the battle system was planned to be largely the same, aside from being in 3D. Complete with trippy backgrounds. Way back in the 64 version they were already talking about including the rhythm aspect. On one hand, I'll bet it would have had some really funny animations and stuff as the characters actually acted out some of the ridiculous actions and attacks. On the other, they may not have ever been able to live up the the text descriptions of those. (Though I gotta give this one to EB, the enemies in that game had a lot more funny and silly actions than the ones in mother 3.)

One of the biggest changes was that they originally wanted the game to have an internal clock. From the sounds of things, they were planning it to be like a mixture of majora's mask/animal crossing in which characters had a set schedule and stuff was always happening even when you weren't playing. Which makes sense when you consider that Animal Forest was probably being developed around the same time. I think they really wanted Tazmily to feel alive, like it was a living and breathing place.
(Woah, just blew my own mind there a little. The whole game meta "we didn't have enough time to flesh out the story" Sounds even more like an apology from the developers to the players when you look at cut features.)

They also made specific mention of dynamic world elements like planting a tree and coming back when it was grown, or moving something easy in the past so it wouldn't be an obstacle later. They wanted the world to change around you.

As for the Claus reveal, they coulda still used a fixed angle. (Imagine the "oh ****" factor of seeing the mecha drago towering over you and running at you, down the mountain, before the fight. Or after the fight they could have dramatically swiveled the camera around to the back side of the mountain for the same effect. There's still ways to get a very similar effect for that kind of reveal.

Looking at some of this stuff, it's unfortunately pretty obvious why it failed. Especially those dynamic world elements, that's biting off a whole lot. It was probably just too ambitious for the hardware.

They cited "inexperience with making a 3D game and the difficulties there in" as the main reason for it's cancellation.
There's not angrer or contempt when I look back at it now and wonder, maybe they were just really bad programmers?
Like, hear me out. Mother 2 was such a programming nightmare that it went though the same development hell.
It started out on the NES and moved to the SNES and was delayed again and again until finally it was an unsalvagable mess of code so bad that they were going to CANCEL the game. Then Iwata stepped in, and singlehandedly reprogrammed the whole game. Rebuilt the engine itself from scratch and saved the game.
The same people from APE went on to become Creatures Inc. who had a large hand in programming the original pokemon.
I don't think I need to tell anyone here that pokemon red and blue are some of the BUGGIEST games I've ever seen. Awesome games, great franchise. but umm... yeah... the game was held together by chewing gum and dreams.
And these were, to my understanding, largely the same people who were working on EB64?
Um yeah... don't have a good feeling about this...

It's still fun to imagine what could have been though...

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Post by Apollo the Just » Thu Apr 06, 2017 2:30 pm

Gotta admit it looks a lot better in animation than it did in stills. I forgot that screenshots tend to do little justice to early 3D games. I am definitely curious to see what that game could have been like; and having Tazmily on a schedule like Clock Town would have been REALLY appealing to me since that was my literal favorite part of Majora's Mask.

At least we eventually got a mine cart scene in a Mother game even after it was cut from this one. (Subspace Emissary, obviously.)
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Post by Cravdraa » Thu Apr 06, 2017 3:00 pm

Absolutely! Lucas's little development arc was one of my favorite parts of that game. Did you know the zoo Lucas getting chased through was based off the abandoned zoo in mother 1?

Can I just mention it's a slight pet peeve of mine that the Smash movesets for both Mother characters are almost entirely comprised of moves they don't actually have?
Like, it's not as if Ness and Lucas don't have moves that could translate into the game well either. Shields, buffs, status effects, PK rockin and PK love respectively... They both have PK Flash, why did they take away the one move that Lucas actually has? =p
And how awesome would it have been been to have Paula or Kumatora actually in the games to use those moves?

I guess I can't be too picky. We still got Mr. Saturns and 3 stages. And the Ness teleport, Lucas Saturn table entrees are some of my favorite little touches (Oh crap, Apollo, pleeeease tell me you got to ride the saturn table in Mother 3 some people miss it, I'd be so sad.)

I saw a comic a while back about Lucas smuggling Duster, Kumatora, and Boney into the Smash 4 roster by disguising them as Fire Emblem characters, club titiboo style. I wish I could find it.

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Post by CaptHayfever » Thu Apr 06, 2017 3:01 pm

[QUOTE="Cravdraa, post: 1626845, member: 21510"]Like, imagine a 2D version of OoT[/QUOTE] Stupid lawyers.

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Post by Apollo the Just » Thu Apr 06, 2017 3:04 pm

I feel u on the Smash moveset Crav. I played Smash first so I felt extremely betrayed when the iconic PK FAIYAH wasn't even a Ness or Lucas move. Also after playing mother 3 would it have killed them to give Lucas a stick instead of a bat.... I just think it would be hilarious to have this kid smackin dudes with a **** twig bc it's LITERALLY WHAT HE USES AS A WEAPON..........

We did get a bunch of rad tunes and stages though so I'm happy. And Lucas ended up staying in the Smash 4 roster as DLC. AND WE HAVE THE GOOD KID'S SHIRT AS A SKIN. So I'm not gonna complain.

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Post by Cravdraa » Thu Apr 06, 2017 3:16 pm

Good news! Go check Lucas's forward smash again and pause it. I think you'll find that I hacked your gamedisk and it is now a stick! =D
(I am a filthy liar it was always a stick I just wanted to feel helpful...)

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Post by Apollo the Just » Thu Apr 06, 2017 4:28 pm

Considering that's something I thought was important enough to be up at arms about, I can't believe I apparently never noticed that. Well then I'm happy. *listens to playlist of Smash Mother songs on repeat while smacking fools with a twig which I have just discovered is not in fact a bat*
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Post by Cravdraa » Thu Apr 06, 2017 5:58 pm

One last video for now. I don't usually like compilations where somebody just grabbed somebody else's work and set it to music but... honestly a lot of the originals no longer seem to exist. And they're really cute. and silly, and I just love this series, okay? So maybe little collections like this do serve a purpose.

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Post by I REALLY HATE POKEMON! » Thu Apr 06, 2017 5:59 pm

[Quote=Cravdraa]Can I just mention it's a slight pet peeve of mine that the Smash movesets for both Mother characters are almost entirely comprised of moves they don't actually have?[/quote]

I felt the same way until I read trophy descriptions and stuff. Those actually explain it and technically add some minor lore to the Earthbound universe (though its canonicity is grey). I'm always glad to get any new tidbits I can from franchises I like so I'm glad for the movesets now.

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Post by Apollo the Just » Thu Apr 06, 2017 8:38 pm

[QUOTE="Cravdraa, post: 1626575, member: 21510"]just highlight the "Status" icon in your menu and hit L & R.[/QUOTE]

Wrong. You have to click the status menu and press L+R right after. :tongue:

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I also like how the memo implies that in earlier versions of the game ko'd party members could be recovered in hot springs lmao. Or that maybe doing nice things for the animals, like finding the mouse kiddies or getting the hermit crab his shell, might have boosted a stat called "Kindness." I already liked those actions anyway, because I thought it was a cute way to show what precious **** cinnamon buns Salsa and Lucas are, but this is still really cool.

(Also, the fact that there are entries for Osohe Ghosts and the Rope Snake makes me very happy.)

I'm a bit salty at myself for completely neglecting to make use of the multiple save slots AT ALL, and for not realizing that storming the tower was the Point Of No Return. Didn't get a chance to try the statue optional boss, plus I had like 4 mementos stored in the item guy and was saving them for the final boss. Welp, hope the item guy enjoys them. Maybe he can use them to fight the statue in my stead.
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